With the full wrap straight draw you are on a very powerful draw , this with the fact of no flush draw available makes it a good situation.
The main thing to realise is the fact that you are behind and on a draw(even though it is a big one).The decision is compounded by the bet out in front of the original raiser for a third of their stack. If i could ensure playing HU versus the original raiser then i would be very tempted to reraise and get the cash over the line. But 3 -way it is harder to do because of the increased chances of drawing to splits.
Again i would fold in this situation but a lot more reluctantly, with my decision being made by the flop action again.
PLO8 is a great variation and changes the dynamics totally.
As far as starting hands are concerned it is a difficult one to say exactly because as in normal omaha the hand is defined by the flop this is even more so in Hi Lo. From the flop you will be able to tell wether there is a chance of a Lo pot in the hand. If there is going to be a Lo pot then you want to be going for the scoop(winning both pots), you dont want to be going all the way in a big pot with only a chance of a split or even worse quartering it.
I suppose if i had to risk everything on a starting hand then i would want a hand that plays very well in both directions so i would ideally want a hand like AA23 double suited.
Board reading skills are very critical in both PLO and PLO8. In PLO you are looking for draws and redraws available but in HiLo you need also to look at the Lo pot possible.Flops that you should immediately be aware of are boards that are 9 Low which automatically preclude the possibility of a Lo pot.Also you need to always be aware of the nuber of 8 and below cards on the board so you can tell where you are at all times.
There are 2 main things to be looking for with your starting hands.
1) cards that work together, same as in normal omaha 2) cards that are capable of winning both the Hi and Lo pots.
You can still play Hi only hands like AAKQ. But even if you hit you need to be aware of the Lo possibilities.A good tactic to use is when you have the nut Hi on a Lo drawing board.Keep the bets small to encourage multiple callers. This way when their Lo draw comes in you will be taking half the pot and they will be fighting over the other half.
DO NOT fall into the simple mistake of mixing high cards with Hi cards.Hi cards are the cards that win the Hi pot and can easily be as low as 23.
Been a while since I was on here, and just been catching up on posts and saw this one, which then made me decide to try hilo again, am a total novice as opposed to just a mere one , so appreciate as much advice as you can give. Have a few hands that I have queries about, but dont want to over load you too much. This was just a small tourny.
2nd hand of the tourny, so know nothing about any of the opponents, feel that I have a very good starting hand, altho obviously no lo possibilities if it comes down to that, so decide to just limp Pre. Hit the flop big, and with the small bet and call, and flush draw possibilities, I pot raise, and get the one caller with position.
Turn card makes the flush if Op2 is playing that, however he checks to me, which give that I was the post flop raiser is understandable. I felt that I should have made a bet on the turn to see what response I would get, however couldnt decide on the bet size, and thus ended up just checking.
I feel that I missed out on possibly getting some more chips from the situation but am not to sure so your comments would be appreciated
The only thing I will say about this hand is that I didnt think enough about what the opponent wouldve reraised me with, but even if I had put them on either 2 pair or a set would I still be justified calling on the flop. As an aside, I thought the Op had gone all in on the flop, hence why I didnt even think of reraising, then when the turn bet came it was a surprise and I felt pot committed so again your thoguhts and comments would be very much appreciated
You were right to be slightly cautious with your hand preflop because although it is a very good omaha hand it is quite a weak Hi Lo hand due to the total lack of a Lo draw. The flop comes down and bingo you have got the world. Not only do you have the nuts plus extensions but also with a 9 low flop there is now no chance of a Lo pot so you are in a position to take it all. You did the right thing to raise it up on this flop to increase the pot and weed out the bad hands.Now you get a caller so the range thinking has to come in.
TQ would raise not call so it leaves us wrap draws ,2/3 pair calls, sets or flush draw.Or of course multiple combinations of these.
The turn is horrible by filling up the flush draw.The check from the oppo is meaningless due to you having the betting lead at this point.Unfortunately you chose the worst of the available options here by checking.You needed to bet out here to get all the information you need for further streets. A bet of about 3/4 of the pot wouldset the hand up perfectly because a massive raise by the oppo and we can easily lay down suspecting the flush.Also by betting the flop and turn you are in fact repping the flush draw and then the made flush.The main reason for betting is also the fact that a lot of hands in his calling range do not have the flush and he would want to see a very cheap river to complete his draws and by betting you would take away the odds for him to do this.
The river is a total blank and because of the noninflated pot size a value bet here is hardly worth it but i still think is required after you were checked to again.
The loss of value all came from the turn. The main thing to remember is that just because a card is scary for you does not mean it has hit them, it could easily be a scare card for them as well.
Hello fellow Colin. Ok first hand. You were right to be slightly cautious with your hand preflop because although it is a very good omaha hand it is quite a weak Hi Lo hand due to the total lack of a Lo draw. The flop comes down and bingo you have got the world. Not only do you have the nuts plus extensions but also with a 9 low flop there is now no chance of a Lo pot so you are in a position to take it all. You did the right thing to raise it up on this flop to increase the pot and weed out the bad hands.Now you get a caller so the range thinking has to come in. TQ would raise not call so it leaves us wrap draws ,2/3 pair calls, sets or flush draw.Or of course multiple combinations of these. The turn is horrible by filling up the flush draw.The check from the oppo is meaningless due to you having the betting lead at this point.Unfortunately you chose the worst of the available options here by checking.You needed to bet out here to get all the information you need for further streets. A bet of about 3/4 of the pot wouldset the hand up perfectly because a massive raise by the oppo and we can easily lay down suspecting the flush.Also by betting the flop and turn you are in fact repping the flush draw and then the made flush.The main reason for betting is also the fact that a lot of hands in his calling range do not have the flush and he would want to see a very cheap river to complete his draws and by betting you would take away the odds for him to do this. The river is a total blank and because of the noninflated pot size a value bet here is hardly worth it but i still think is required after you were checked to again. The loss of value all came from the turn. The main thing to remember is that just because a card is scary for you does not mean it has hit them, it could easily be a scare card for them as well. Posted by Talon
Cheers Col
I knew I wanted to raise the turn, just couldnt decide what bet size to go for , and with it being only the 2nd hand of the tourny decided on discretion. Have to admit once the river was checked , I didnt even think of anything other than checking myself, as I was still thinking about the turn situation, and whether I had missed an opportunity.
Guess I took on all your paranoid comments in the thread to heart
Firstly it is a very marginal PLO8 hand with good Hi possibilities but very poor Lo ones.
You pick up a good Hi draw on the flop but the board is screaming Lo and yours is very poor indeed. Your best option at this point would be to take a cheap card and reevalute after the turn. By raising you have accelerated the pot with only a good draw to win potentially half the pot when the reraise comes in that is a sure sign for you to get out of the pot because you are only hoping to get lucky to win what is probably half the pot. As played you have to call the turn bet and you find that you were not in as bad a situation as you could have been with both Hi and Lo draws being active.
But as i said earlier the problem came on the flop when you raised with half a draw and ended up pot committing yourself at that stage. If you find a similar situation again then keep pot control until you have a real hand or a good scoop draw.
There is a major problem with any advice i give to tournament play because as i have stated before i am totally self-taught and have specialised in the cash game.I have played someMTTs and STTs and so willjust settle for given some conclusions i have reached from my limited experience.
The major thing to remember is that the game is pot limit and therefore the all-in preflop move doesnt really exist until someone has only a micro stack left. If you are raising UTG then the largest raise available is only to 3BB. For this reason it is essential to get your stack ahead of the blinds and to stay that way in order to enable you to play the hands correctly.
The best way i have found to do this is to be active and aggressive at the early levels, 10/20 15/30 and 25/50.This is where you can pick up a lot of chips and get yourself nicely stacked.The only caveat is that you do this with good hands and big draws not just any 4 cards and hope to get lucky. Always play your hands aggressively when the need arises and dont be afraid to let the pot get out of control when you do hit a flop big.
Once the blinds reach 50/100 people start to become more aware of their stacks and the need to get them moving.This is the time to narrow your starting range a bit but play aggressively pre and post flop with big hands as there will a lot less calling and limping from this point onwards.
In the late stages it really does become a nightmare because of the blinds and the fact that you are not assured of being more than 60-65% favourite preflop.So it is all about controlled aggression and luck.
Sorry if that is not much help but i will leave you with a few general omaha pointers.
1) Do not over rate and overplay big pocket pairs 2) Bet your big draws dont call 3) Bet dont checkraise (remember this is pot limit) 4) Do not chase straights and flushes on a paired board 5) Always remember the twin principles of paranoia and aggression 6) Watch the board carefully and understand what the scare cards are 7) Your opponent has 6 hands so they could be on every draw available 8) All betting should be 3/4 to pot size(draw heavy game so take away the odds) 9)most importantly have fun
Right as you can see i was a bit of a rabbit in headlights here, would like to here your thoughts colin, basically i was happy to go all in with high pair and two low cards as i think i would struggle post flop in this game. hands i have tried to shove pre is this bad move or tooo much relying on variance in this spots and luck as i know its post flop game aswell but dont feel confident so thought get reasonable starting hands will aim to get in as much as possible. obviously hand i went out was ul but overall thoughts please
The first step when moving from PLO to PLO8 is to remember that a good PLO starting hand is also a good PLO8 starting hand.Of the 3 hands you played here hand 1 is a good hand and hands 2 and 3 are complete junk.
The Lo pot is only active in some of the hands and not all so you do not want to over play Lo drawing hands preflop because of this.Just remember to play hands that work together well and have a chance of winning the Lo pot (if it is available). You can still play Hi only drawing hands but just cautiously because of the split pot potential but the main thing to not do is play hands just because they have a few random low cards which might take the Lo pot.
cheers mate that will help, may give another go soon then )
was thinking suited low connectors good for low and big pair but both times didnt hit my low so can see your points i will have another go now i have a bit more know how, you should join our next forum hi/lo game aswell
Should my bet on the flop have been bigger (I didn't necessarily want to get commited to the hand with 3 other players involved although I realise it would be leaving me a bit short, and I was prepared to call the mystery player if he came over the top - also it's a DYM) and is the call with a gutshot for nearly half his stack reasonable or a pile of poo?
xxxxSmall blind 50.00 50.00 1060.00 starlite Big blind 100.00 150.00 3500.00 Your hole cards 5 A 10 Q goonerjo10 Call 100.00 250.00 5240.00 Darntootin Call 100.00 350.00 1850.00 xxxxCall 50.00 400.00 1010.00 starlite Check Flop 5 Q 4 xxxxBet 100.00 500.00 910.00 starlite Fold goonerjo10 Call 100.00 600.00 5140.00 Darntootin Raise 500.00 1100.00 1350.00 xxxxCall 400.00 1500.00 510.00 goonerjo10 Fold Turn J xxxx Bet 100.00 1600.00 410.00 Darntootin Raise 600.00 2200.00 750.00 xxxxAll-in 410.00 2610.00 0.00 Darntootin Unmatched bet 90.00 2520.00 840.00 xxxx Show 3 7 10 K Darntootin Show 5 A 10 Q River 9 xxxxWin Straight to the King 2520.00 2520.00
Comments
With the full wrap straight draw you are on a very powerful draw , this with the fact of no flush draw available makes it a good situation.
The main thing to realise is the fact that you are behind and on a draw(even though it is a big one).The decision is compounded by the bet out in front of the original raiser for a third of their stack. If i could ensure playing HU versus the original raiser then i would be very tempted to reraise and get the cash over the line. But 3 -way it is harder to do because of the increased chances of drawing to splits.
Again i would fold in this situation but a lot more reluctantly, with my decision being made by the flop action again.
As far as starting hands are concerned it is a difficult one to say exactly because as in normal omaha the hand is defined by the flop this is even more so in Hi Lo. From the flop you will be able to tell wether there is a chance of a Lo pot in the hand. If there is going to be a Lo pot then you want to be going for the scoop(winning both pots), you dont want to be going all the way in a big pot with only a chance of a split or even worse quartering it.
I suppose if i had to risk everything on a starting hand then i would want a hand that plays very well in both directions so i would ideally want a hand like AA23 double suited.
Board reading skills are very critical in both PLO and PLO8. In PLO you are looking for draws and redraws available but in HiLo you need also to look at the Lo pot possible.Flops that you should immediately be aware of are boards that are 9 Low which automatically preclude the possibility of a Lo pot.Also you need to always be aware of the nuber of 8 and below cards on the board so you can tell where you are at all times.
1) cards that work together, same as in normal omaha
2) cards that are capable of winning both the Hi and Lo pots.
You can still play Hi only hands like AAKQ. But even if you hit you need to be aware of the Lo possibilities.A good tactic to use is when you have the nut Hi on a Lo drawing board.Keep the bets small to encourage multiple callers. This way when their Lo draw comes in you will be taking half the pot and they will be fighting over the other half.
DO NOT fall into the simple mistake of mixing high cards with Hi cards.Hi cards are the cards that win the Hi pot and can easily be as low as 23.
2nd hand of the tourny, so know nothing about any of the opponents, feel that I have a very good starting hand, altho obviously no lo possibilities if it comes down to that, so decide to just limp Pre. Hit the flop big, and with the small bet and call, and flush draw possibilities, I pot raise, and get the one caller with position.
Turn card makes the flush if Op2 is playing that, however he checks to me, which give that I was the post flop raiser is understandable. I felt that I should have made a bet on the turn to see what response I would get, however couldnt decide on the bet size, and thus ended up just checking.
I feel that I missed out on possibly getting some more chips from the situation but am not to sure so your comments would be appreciated
Many thanks
Aski (Col)
Cheers
Aski (Col)
Ok first hand.
You were right to be slightly cautious with your hand preflop because although it is a very good omaha hand it is quite a weak Hi Lo hand due to the total lack of a Lo draw.
The flop comes down and bingo you have got the world. Not only do you have the nuts plus extensions but also with a 9 low flop there is now no chance of a Lo pot so you are in a position to take it all. You did the right thing to raise it up on this flop to increase the pot and weed out the bad hands.Now you get a caller so the range thinking has to come in.
TQ would raise not call so it leaves us wrap draws ,2/3 pair calls, sets or flush draw.Or of course multiple combinations of these.
The turn is horrible by filling up the flush draw.The check from the oppo is meaningless due to you having the betting lead at this point.Unfortunately you chose the worst of the available options here by checking.You needed to bet out here to get all the information you need for further streets. A bet of about 3/4 of the pot wouldset the hand up perfectly because a massive raise by the oppo and we can easily lay down suspecting the flush.Also by betting the flop and turn you are in fact repping the flush draw and then the made flush.The main reason for betting is also the fact that a lot of hands in his calling range do not have the flush and he would want to see a very cheap river to complete his draws and by betting you would take away the odds for him to do this.
The river is a total blank and because of the noninflated pot size a value bet here is hardly worth it but i still think is required after you were checked to again.
The loss of value all came from the turn. The main thing to remember is that just because a card is scary for you does not mean it has hit them, it could easily be a scare card for them as well.
Cheers Col
I knew I wanted to raise the turn, just couldnt decide what bet size to go for , and with it being only the 2nd hand of the tourny decided on discretion. Have to admit once the river was checked , I didnt even think of anything other than checking myself, as I was still thinking about the turn situation, and whether I had missed an opportunity.
Guess I took on all your paranoid comments in the thread to heart
Aski (Col)
Firstly it is a very marginal PLO8 hand with good Hi possibilities but very poor Lo ones.
You pick up a good Hi draw on the flop but the board is screaming Lo and yours is very poor indeed. Your best option at this point would be to take a cheap card and reevalute after the turn. By raising you have accelerated the pot with only a good draw to win potentially half the pot when the reraise comes in that is a sure sign for you to get out of the pot because you are only hoping to get lucky to win what is probably half the pot.
As played you have to call the turn bet and you find that you were not in as bad a situation as you could have been with both Hi and Lo draws being active.
But as i said earlier the problem came on the flop when you raised with half a draw and ended up pot committing yourself at that stage. If you find a similar situation again then keep pot control until you have a real hand or a good scoop draw.
The major thing to remember is that the game is pot limit and therefore the all-in preflop move doesnt really exist until someone has only a micro stack left. If you are raising UTG then the largest raise available is only to 3BB. For this reason it is essential to get your stack ahead of the blinds and to stay that way in order to enable you to play the hands correctly.
The best way i have found to do this is to be active and aggressive at the early levels, 10/20 15/30 and 25/50.This is where you can pick up a lot of chips and get yourself nicely stacked.The only caveat is that you do this with good hands and big draws not just any 4 cards and hope to get lucky. Always play your hands aggressively when the need arises and dont be afraid to let the pot get out of control when you do hit a flop big.
Once the blinds reach 50/100 people start to become more aware of their stacks and the need to get them moving.This is the time to narrow your starting range a bit but play aggressively pre and post flop with big hands as there will a lot less calling and limping from this point onwards.
In the late stages it really does become a nightmare because of the blinds and the fact that you are not assured of being more than 60-65% favourite preflop.So it is all about controlled aggression and luck.
Sorry if that is not much help but i will leave you with a few general omaha pointers.
1) Do not over rate and overplay big pocket pairs
2) Bet your big draws dont call
3) Bet dont checkraise (remember this is pot limit)
4) Do not chase straights and flushes on a paired board
5) Always remember the twin principles of paranoia and aggression
6) Watch the board carefully and understand what the scare cards are
7) Your opponent has 6 hands so they could be on every draw available
8) All betting should be 3/4 to pot size(draw heavy game so take away the odds)
9)most importantly have fun
1)
The Lo pot is only active in some of the hands and not all so you do not want to over play Lo drawing hands preflop because of this.Just remember to play hands that work together well and have a chance of winning the Lo pot (if it is available). You can still play Hi only drawing hands but just cautiously because of the split pot potential but the main thing to not do is play hands just because they have a few random low cards which might take the Lo pot.
was thinking suited low connectors good for low and big pair but both times didnt hit my low so can see your points i will have another go now i have a bit more know how, you should join our next forum hi/lo game aswell
Darntootin Small blind 15.00 15.00 1945.00 the crazyBig blind 30.00 45.00 1520.00 Your hole cards the optimistCall 30.00 75.00 1640.00 imber Call 30.00 105.00 2220.00 MYTIMENOW Call 30.00 135.00 1890.00 Not-a-Doug Call 30.00 165.00 2620.00 Darntootin Call 15.00 180.00 1930.00 the crazyCheck Flop Q 8 Q Darntootin Check the crazyCheck the optimistCheck imber Check MYTIMENOW Check Not-a-Doug Check Turn 7 Darntootin Check the crazy All-in 1520.00 1700.00 0.00 the optimistCall 1520.00 3220.00 120.00 imber Fold MYTIMENOW Fold Not-a-Doug Fold Darntootin Fold the crazyShow 6 6 7 2 the optimistShow 4 5 6 10 River A the crazyWin Two Pairs, Queens and 7s 3220.00 3220.00
Would be interesting to know the thought processes going on here.
Should my bet on the flop have been bigger (I didn't necessarily want to get commited to the hand with 3 other players involved although I realise it would be leaving me a bit short, and I was prepared to call the mystery player if he came over the top - also it's a DYM) and is the call with a gutshot for nearly half his stack reasonable or a pile of poo?
xxxxSmall blind 50.00 50.00 1060.00 starlite Big blind 100.00 150.00 3500.00 Your hole cards 5 A 10 Q goonerjo10 Call 100.00 250.00 5240.00 Darntootin Call 100.00 350.00 1850.00 xxxxCall 50.00 400.00 1010.00 starlite Check Flop 5 Q 4 xxxxBet 100.00 500.00 910.00 starlite Fold goonerjo10 Call 100.00 600.00 5140.00 Darntootin Raise 500.00 1100.00 1350.00 xxxxCall 400.00 1500.00 510.00 goonerjo10 Fold Turn J xxxx Bet 100.00 1600.00 410.00 Darntootin Raise 600.00 2200.00 750.00 xxxxAll-in 410.00 2610.00 0.00 Darntootin Unmatched bet 90.00 2520.00 840.00 xxxx Show 3 7 10 K Darntootin Show 5 A 10 Q River 9 xxxxWin Straight to the King 2520.00 2520.00