*deleted earlier post to rewrite... I was thinking about what I wrote and then found I actually disagreed with it. For those that didn't read it, I was just basically saying red meat should be consumed rarely, but poultry is ok to eat more often. I remember a lecture I went to which basically ripped apart this piece of misinformation and I actually managed to forget that I changed my mind on the issue generally speaking, both red meats and poultry are ok to be eaten but both should be in moderation, like most things. What's important to note is where you're getting your meat from - the quality of your meat actually plays an important factor. A cut from your local butcher is likely to be completely fine, whereas one from a typical supermarket is likely to have been corn fed and from corn feeding comes two problems - antibiotics and hormones. This is all very true and I'm sure it's what you saw on the documentary - from what I can recall, cows are supposed to heve a strict diet of grass (thank god I'm human), and when they are forced to eat something else, they become sick. The only thing for the farmers to do at this point is to stuff them with antibiotics to avoid the other cows getting infected. so, if you can afford it, consider shopping at a more high quality supermarket or if you live near one, go to the butchers So, there are actually many valid ethical arguments to consider when thinking about veggie. perhaps one of the most apparent is the one we've been discussing - farm animals are treated badly - but there are also other reasons. for example, producing a KG of meat requires FAR more land, water, fertilisers and other inputs than necessary for producing an equivalent amount of veggies! The benefits of avoiding meat consumption here are obvious... there's also some other argument but I've forgotten it Posted by percival09
People prob gonna hate this, but I'm going to write it anyway.
Is there any point? Will it make a difference?
When discussing it off here, I've compard it to voting in the general election.
It's not something I've ever done, because my vote will never ever ever make a difference.
It's like a million to 1 shot that a national vote or even a smaller scale vote will ever be won by 1 single vote.
So in my opinion there is no point in voting. You're not making a diffrence.
You can make a difference, if you go out campaigning and effectively win your 'team' hundreds, or even thousands of votes that they wouldn't otherwise get.
It is more likely (altho still insanely unlikely) that a vote could be close enough for say 5k votes to swing it.
People always say "well if everyone had that attitude, no1 would vote"
.....but everyone doesn't have that attitutude. It's a pretty huge 'if'.
If everyone did have that attitude, I would change my attitude, obviously.
If only a hanfful of people voted, my vote would now be alot more (although still not very) likely to impact the result.
Anyone voting and thinking their 1 single vote is important is just wronggggg imo.
----
So if I go veggie, is it going to change anything? Nah.
If there was a vote tomorrow (lawl) and lets say I had to vote or it cost me a grand or something, I would be happy to vote against meat being legal, and therefore everyone in the world has to stop eating it and therefore we have a solution to the problem.
If I stop scranning meat, nowt is going to change is it.
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Fwiw the most shocking thing on the documentry for me was a stat about 3rd world countries where there are a high % of people starving.
82% of the food farmed in those countries is fed to cows, for the production of meat for people in wealthier countries.
in my early twenties i stopped eating meat as i did feel that when there are countries who cant feed their own people using what farmable land they have to fatten up animals to sell to us in the west was something i couldnt be a part of.
ultimately i liked bacon too much and went back to the darkside after 4 years.
a vegetarian diet can be just as harmful to animals, maybe more so.
eggs are battery farmed.
cows are fed to bloating and kettled into milking pens. they are inseminated over and over so they produce calves [and therefore milk]. under a vegetarian world half of these calves are male and are therefore superfluous to milk production / farming in general.
In Response to Re: "Sit & DOHHHHHHH Diary" : People prob gonna hate this, but I'm going to write it anyway. Is there any point? Will it make a difference? When discussing it off here, I've compard it to voting in the general election. It's not something I've ever done, because my vote will never ever ever make a difference. It's like a million to 1 shot that a national vote or even a smaller scale vote will ever be won by 1 single vote. So in my opinion there is no point in voting. You're not making a diffrence. You can make a difference, if you go out campaigning and effectively win your 'team' hundreds, or even thousands of votes that they wouldn't otherwise get. It is more likely (altho still insanely unlikely) that a vote could be close enough for say 5k votes to swing it. People always say "well if everyone had that attitude, no1 would vote" .....but everyone doesn't have that attitutude. It's a pretty huge 'if'. If everyone did have that attitude, I would change my attitude, obviously. If only a hanfful of people voted, my vote would now be alot more (although still not very) likely to impact the result. Anyone voting and thinking their 1 single vote is important is just wronggggg imo. ---- So if I go veggie, is it going to change anything? Nah. If there was a vote tomorrow (lawl) and lets say I had to vote or it cost me a grand or something, I would be happy to vote against meat being legal, and therefore everyone in the world has to stop eating it and therefore we have a solution to the problem. If I stop scranning meat, nowt is going to change is it. ----- Fwiw the most shocking thing on the documentry for me was a stat about 3rd world countries where there are a high % of people starving. 82% of the food farmed in those countries is fed to cows, for the production of meat for people in wealthier countries. That really hit me hard that 1, grim. Posted by DOHHHHHHH
will reply properly later, but I think the main concern I have with this post is that you're underestimating the amount of people who did/do have the same thought process as yourself. A lot of people do something about it, sure, but a lot don't (probably the majority) and imagine if these people all actually decided to do something about it - there would of cours be a noticeable shift. These are people that actually had the same through process as yourself, so it's totally reasonable to think that they at least have a decent chance of deciding to doing something rather than not. If less people avoided it, then everything would surely be better. I think that's reason enough to at least try.
and your argument pretty much boils down to this - you think it's justifiable to essentially exploit the fact that others will take care of something, allowing you to be lazy and enjoy doing what you're doing. Ofc I do it too - but that's what your argument is heh
RE voting, I despise the argument of "people fought for your right to vote so voting is the least you can do!!!!!!"
yes but they also fought for my right NOT to vote.
I was initially going to set myself a challenge simply not to eat meat, by that I meant avoid putting lamb/beef/bacon in my gob and chewing etc.
I couldn't be ar sed checking everything I eat to make sure there was no trace of meat in it and that it was veggie friendly,
I wasn't bothered about that as it was only supposed to be a personal challenge to see if I could do it.
Alas, the inevitable "if you're eating gravy you might as well eat the whole cow" comments came flooding in, and I was taunted into taking on the full official veggie challenge, the whole Hogg
It starts Monday, as it'd be rude not to scoff my fridge full of Pig first.
Just to clarify, it's not for anything other than a personal test/experiment, I'm not suddenly contradicting everything I said in the previous post by doing this, and if it has negative impacts on my health and I feel even more cra p than usual I'll just quit happily without any regrets.
Mate of mine wants me to post that I turned down an evens bet on me being successful.
He thinks it shows the attempt is half hearted and that it implies that I know I'm going to fail.
I think it shows that I know I'm < 50% to succeed.
My girlfriend (who's been veggie most of life) watched Cowspiracy the other day and I caught glimpses of it whilst I was grinding poker. Most of it is stuff I already knew, but still fascinating. Earthlings is another documentary that is pretty eye opening but can be hard to watch.
Lots of vegan animal advocates are "all or nothing" approach and sure, whilst I think veganism should be the moral baseline and the ultimate goal to aim for as a society I don't think that smaller steps are pointless.
As for the "one person can't make a difference" - It's funny how you bring up voting because people have used this reasoning before and I've then asked them why do they vote if one person can't make a difference.... that stumps them! I know you give to charity occasionally though; so why do you do this if one person (or one small amount) can't make a difference?
I get where you're coming from because I used to have exactly the same mind-set that 1 person can't make a difference (and thought the same with voting and pretty much anything else including reclycling and giving to charity.
There's some good Vegan Sidekick comics about the "1 person can't make a difference" - one that I can remember is just a cartoon of loads of people all saying that they would thing about going vegan but that 1 person can't make a difference. If everyone switched their mindset to believing they could make a difference then it wouldn't be 1 person anymore it would be 100,000.
Would love to debate this more but have to get back to the grind!
just remember we were designed to eat meat you should be careful messing around with your system given the probs you are having Posted by GELDY
we're also meant to eat veggies, fruit etc etc.
yes, it's true though, humans are meant to eat meat, our bodies have evolved to handle a diet that involves meat - we are omnivores. but, we are not meant to eat confined animals, whose diets are being altered away from what is natural to them.
I think a reasonable thing to do if you're not willing to go veggie, is to at least drastically reduce the amount of meat you eat.
actually, thinking about it, I don't think I should even say "meant to eat" - "meant" implies there is some force out there, deciding what we should or shouldn't do. I'm not officially saying there isn't, but to my knowledge at least there isn't. But of course like I earlier said, we evolved as omnivores.
and btw, who designed humans? let's not talk about that, it'll last too long and end up with some forum blocking + banning!
I always believed humans were not supposed to eat meat?? i thought our bodies just evolved in a way to be able to cope with consuming meat. Maybe that is just a myth but when you look at our bodies its hard to imagine we are designed for hunting down animals and consuming flesh.. I am a meat eater myself but i have been giving serious thought to attempting to become vegan for a while, the health benefits alone make it a no-brainer, just thr thought of no more fried breakfasts is depressing to say the least
I always believed humans were not supposed to eat meat?? i thought our bodies just evolved in a way to be able to cope with consuming meat. Maybe that is just a myth but when you look at our bodies its hard to imagine we are designed for hunting down animals and consuming flesh.. I am a meat eater myself but i have been giving serious thought to attempting to become vegan for a while, the health benefits alone make it a no-brainer, just thr thought of no more fried breakfasts is depressing to say the least Posted by jordz16
there are many many many studies suggesting meat is needed for health reasons, and that actually having a vegetarian diet is the healthy option, so it's not as clear as you stated.
we aren't meant or not meant to do anything. Humans have probably always eaten meat, but not like we do today. In the past, I think it was mainly game and forage. Nowadays we aren't as good at hunting as our ancestors were, again thanks to evolution - our teeth, for example, aren't sharp enough. Why would you think we're not supposed to consume flesh by looking at our bodies? Do you think an elephant looks like it's a meat eater?
In Response to Re: "Sit & DOHHHHHHH Diary" : there are many many many studies suggesting meat is needed for health reasons, and that actually having a vegetarian diet is the healthy option, so it's not as clear as you stated. we aren't meant or not meant to do anything. Humans have probably always eaten meat, but not like we do today. In the past, I think it was mainly game and forage. Nowadays we aren't as good at hunting as our ancestors were, again thanks to evolution - our teeth, for example, aren't sharp enough. Why would you think we're not supposed to consume flesh by looking at our bodies? Do you think an elephant looks like it's a meat eater? Posted by percival09
I dont claim to be any sort of expert, i may be completely wrong. but I thought it was to do with our jaws, because we can move them side to side so we can grind down fruits, nuts etc that kind of stuff, whereas flesh eating animals have jaws that can open far wider and can lock to tear away flesh etc, saying that im sure thousands of years ago we were a lot different
just remember we were designed to eat meat you should be careful messing around with your system given the probs you are having Posted by GELDY
Yea I suppose it's a bit dodgy bit it's not like my diet atm is working very well despite me cutting out all the junk/sugar etc.
It's abit of a freeroll in that regard, either I do it and it makes me feel better, or I do it and I continue to feel cr@p
@ Ivan, surely charity is different?
It's certainly different to my point about voting in elections.
The money does make a difference.....
A family who wouldn't otherwise will get access to water for x amount of time? or food? Or maybe a homeless dog who wouldn't otherwise be rescued, will be.
Someone somewhere will benefit from every single charity donation?
I'd like to think so anyway, maybe I'm wrong.
Will me changing my diet do anything at all?
I'm not so sure. Means like a cow gets to live an extra day or something?
It's such a miniscule difference to problems which are so big they're probably never going to be cured. Unlike the bacon I plan on having for breakfast
Humans are also very adaptable though and our bodies have definitely evolved to be able to eat meat. As for it being necessary? I take most things I read with a pinch of salt regarding studies. Meat industries are very large and powerful and can easily get a bunch of scientists together and ask them to prove that a vegetarian or vegan diet is bad for you and it's easily possible to manipulate facts in a way to do so. It's also easily possible to be an unhealthy vegan in the same way it's easily possible to be an unhealthy meat eater (just take half of America for example) but Veganism when done right is very healthy.
B12 is often cited as one of the reasons why we need to eat meat but then animals are actually given B12 - that's the only reason they are a source of B12. It used to be widely available in fruits and veggies from soil before the invention of pesticides took away the B12 from the soil. I've got some articles on this somewhere saved but don't want to look right now!
Of course it works with charities. One could easily argue that there's no point in giving £1 to a charity because someone else will donate more, and besides, my £1 won't actually do anything. And even if I did, then a decent % of that £1 would be kept by the charity. But if 1,000,000 people donate £1, you kno how much that is?
Of course it works with charities. One could easily argue that there's no point in giving £1 to a charity because someone else will donate more, and besides, my £1 won't actually do anything. And even if I did, then a decent % of that £1 would be kept by the charity. But if 1,000,000 people donate £1, you kno how much that is? Posted by percival09
It doesn't matter how much other people do or don't donate, my £1 will be helping someone. It is guarenteed to make a difference to someone.
It's not gonna stop people dying of thirst but it will cure sum1s thirst for x amount of time.
In an election, it doesn't matter how many other people do or do not vote, my 1 vote will not make any difference at all.
Comments
.....but everyone doesn't have that attitutude. It's a pretty huge 'if'.
and your argument pretty much boils down to this - you think it's justifiable to essentially exploit the fact that others will take care of something, allowing you to be lazy and enjoy doing what you're doing. Ofc I do it too - but that's what your argument is heh
RE voting, I despise the argument of "people fought for your right to vote so voting is the least you can do!!!!!!"
yes but they also fought for my right NOT to vote.
yes, it's true though, humans are meant to eat meat, our bodies have evolved to handle a diet that involves meat - we are omnivores. but, we are not meant to eat confined animals, whose diets are being altered away from what is natural to them.
I think a reasonable thing to do if you're not willing to go veggie, is to at least drastically reduce the amount of meat you eat.
actually, thinking about it, I don't think I should even say "meant to eat" - "meant" implies there is some force out there, deciding what we should or shouldn't do. I'm not officially saying there isn't, but to my knowledge at least there isn't. But of course like I earlier said, we evolved as omnivores.
and btw, who designed humans? let's not talk about that, it'll last too long and end up with some forum blocking + banning!
we aren't meant or not meant to do anything. Humans have probably always eaten meat, but not like we do today. In the past, I think it was mainly game and forage. Nowadays we aren't as good at hunting as our ancestors were, again thanks to evolution - our teeth, for example, aren't sharp enough. Why would you think we're not supposed to consume flesh by looking at our bodies? Do you think an elephant looks like it's a meat eater?