In Response to Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!! : Well it's a terrible call vs the hand you put em on aswell. Put it in sit and go wiz its a fold. Put it in end game tools its a fold. Defend ur self thats fine all you have to do is say i got it wrong not hard. The post is about bad calls and as ur a main contributer to the forum everyones taking onboard what you say but stating that play undermines the post thats all. I dont call my self an expert and am not looking for an argument the fact is that each post gives advice to the person who starts the post or an answer, ur picking sides hes not wrong he s right why you against what he said ect ect. The facts are fallens venting a bit of frustration. People are posting her sharkscope stats without asking thats out of order. Your telling people that decent players should make bad calls. Peace out. Posted by jimifloyd
hi jimi,im no expert but all your post here makes sense to me.gl debs xx
In Response to Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!! : I'm struggling to understand this post. 1. There appear to be two Kc in the pack. 2. There would be 9 clubs left unless you knew where 2 of the other clubs were. Yes, it's a bad beat - as you say later you are nearly 95% to win after that flop - but very few people are going to put down top pair/top kicker. This sort of beat happens regularly (slightly more than 1 time in twenty, in fact :-) ) and we just have to accept them. Posted by MereNovice
Mere thats not the orignal post, I started it yes2day after a beating and carried it on 2day as I had another bad beat last night aswell.....everyhing seems 2 b getting crossed over.
Ur right I did miscalculate, it is indeed 5k to win 7.5k - which further justifies my argument.
Im not gonna admit i'm wrong if I dont think I am, that wud be daft.
As for putting it through these odds checkers or poker calculators or whatever they r called, I think theyre a waste of time, as Ive stated so many times in different threads. how can 5k to win 7.5k, a 150% R.O.I - be a bad call when im live? - Very live?
Its not a snap call, or an obvious call, Im saying its not a bad call, and its definately not a terrible call!
Looks like its me nu V the majority VB! Ur right I did miscalculate, it is indeed 5k to win 7.5k - which further justifies my argument. Im not gonna admit i'm wrong if I dont think I am, that wud be daft. As for putting it through these odds checkers or poker calculators or whatever they r called, I think theyre a waste of time, as Ive stated so many times in different threads. how can 5k to win 7.5k, a 150% R.O.I - be a bad call when im live? - Very live? Its not a snap call, or an obvious call, Im saying its not a bad call, and its definately not a terrible call! DOHH Posted by DOHHHHHHH
OMG the fact is yes he DID call with a terrible hand regardless of the chips involved...and he BIT CHED about it when it was done 2 him.
In Response to Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!! : Hi mate In this example you are actually putting in 5k to win 7.5k I think (the 6k stack plus the blinds) so you are definitely getting the correct odds to call here imo providing you know your opponent has 2 high cards and not the overpair. I agree with you, its by no means a terrible call in this particular situation. Posted by yb
Let me set the world straight then there is only 2 calls good or bad for agruments sake.
Put it in sit and go wiz its bad.
Put it in end game tools its bad. Both proffesional, statistical and mathmatically right.
It s a -EV call or a bad call. But i agree it is marginal.
So for arguments sake a looser player makes the call. A tighter player doesn't.
Looks like its me nu V the majority VB! Ur right I did miscalculate, it is indeed 5k to win 7.5k - which further justifies my argument. Im not gonna admit i'm wrong if I dont think I am, that wud be daft. As for putting it through these odds checkers or poker calculators or whatever they r called, I think theyre a waste of time, as Ive stated so many times in different threads. how can 5k to win 7.5k, a 150% R.O.I - be a bad call when im live? - Very live? Its not a snap call, or an obvious call, Im saying its not a bad call, and its definately not a terrible call! DOHH Posted by DOHHHHHHH
1. You are referring to a "imaginary" scenario where you can see your opponent's hand before you call. 2. Even against the KT you are only 36% so you are not getting the correct pot odds to call even this. If he has an overpair you are 17% pre-flop. If you were calling 5K to win 10K you would be getting the correct pot odds (to call two random overcards) but in this instance that is far from the actual odds. That is why people are saying that it is a bad call. I wouldn't necessarily call it a "terrible" call because of meta-game considerations (e.g. a chance to knock-out an opponent and also to show other people that you are a maniac and they shouldn't try to steal your blinds) but I think most people can agree that it is a bad call.
In Response to Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!! : 1. You are referring to a "imaginary" scenario where you can see your opponent's hand before you call. 2. Even against the KT you are only 36% so you are not getting the correct pot odds to call even this. If he has an overpair you are 17% pre-flop. If you were calling 5K to win 10K you would be getting the correct pot odds (to call two random overcards) but in this instance that is far from the actual odds. That is why people are saying that it is a bad call. I wouldn't necessarily call it a "terrible" call because of meta-game considerations (e.g. a chance to knock-out an opponent and also to show other people that you are a maniac and they shouldn't try to steal your blinds) but I think most people can agree that it is a bad call. Posted by MereNovice
Thank you no more majority DOHHHHH!
Yeah i watch too much poker my bad if anyone makes a bad call i say terrible,i may even do a hellmuth and call you an idiot who can't spell poker.Just messing come on lighten up everyone.Feels like you seem to have a problem dohhhhhhh bringing up majorities and what not.
End of the day who do i think is correct sit and go wiz , end game tools or dohhhhhhh.
In Response to Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!! : Let me set the world straight then there is only 2 calls good or bad for agruments sake. Put it in sit and go wiz its bad. Put it in end game tools its bad. Both proffesional, statistical and mathmatically right. It's 5.5 k to call. 500 sb + 6000 stack vs 1000 bb 36000 stack. It s a -EV call or a bad call. But i agree it is marginal. So for arguments sake a looser player makes the call. A tighter player doesn't. Posted by jimifloyd
I agree with this. Fwiw I don't make this call normally because I could be so easily dominated by an overpair. It was only in the hypothetical situation that Dohhhhhhh created that I would make the call. Also I took it that it was the button that shoved on the bb, not the sb, which is where I got 5k to win 7.5k from. In a real life situation when you don't know your opponent's holding your right that it's a -EV call, my main point was that it's marginal enough to definitely not be terrible. There will be many players that are willing to take risks to build up a chip lead in a MTT because it's normally the aggressive players that go on to win it. They are also more likely to crash out very early so it depends on your mindset I guess.
me n u V the majority VB .... means, we r the minority.
Ive never sat down and played against a computer programme oir a robot, at least I dnt think I have. Im not bothered what these programmes say. My aim is to win the tournament, as explained, Im not bothered about making the cash, ill sacrifice 4 garenteed minor cashes, for 1 crack at a final table with a healthy stack.
If u play a tourny 8 times say the primo, finish 11th 7 n win the other, whats the difference prize money wise? I bet the 1 win will pay more?
Neway im calling everytime once he tells me he has king ten, must make me one of the poor players, im happy with that as long as im winning.
In Response to Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!! : SO SEAGULL158 DOES SHARKSOPE SHOW THAT I TEND 2 STAY IN MOST TOURNYS A LONG TIME ? I THOUGHT THAT MEANT U WERE A SOLID PLAYER....I HARDLY EVER TILT AND IF I DO ITS OUT OF NECESSITY. JUST WATCH ME AND UR SEE IM THE LEAST PERSON WHO DOES. BUT WHEN I DO I GET CALLED MY SOME CHANCING MUPPET WHO WINS. OH AND BTW DID NOT HAVE A DIG AT DOHHHHHHH HAVE SEEN HIM PLAY A LOT ON HERE AND ON THE SKY CHANNEL AND HAPPEN 2 THINK HES A GOOD PLAYER. Posted by xFALLENx
No, Sharkscope doesn't show that. It doesn't show that I do either, which I do, but what it does show is that you don't cash often enough to make a profit and nor do I but several other players do. If I posted Sharkscope stats and I shouldn't have then I apologise. However, that stats are all in the public domain so there shouldn't be a problem. If the site is full of fish who make bad calls and get lucky why is it that some players e.g. you and me, don't seem to be able to win against them but other players e.g. DOHHHHHHH, do? I would suggest it's down to the level of skill. We're both trying hard and we have further to go. If you remain in denial and put it all down to donks getting lucky against you then you are denying yourself the chance to improve.
me n u V the majority VB .... means, we r the minority. Ive never sat down and played against a computer programme oir a robot, at least I dnt think I have. Im not bothered what these programmes say. My aim is to win the tournament, as explained, Im not bothered about making the cash, ill sacrifice 4 garenteed minor cashes, for 1 crack at a final table with a healthy stack. If u play a tourny 8 times say the primo, finish 11th 7 n win the other, whats the difference prize money wise? I bet the 1 win will pay more? Neway im calling everytime once he tells me he has king ten, must make me one of the poor players, im happy with that as long as im winning. DOHH Posted by DOHHHHHHH
Yep you go against the odds well played.
By the way it's YB not VB.
I'll take im not bothered about these programmes as you have more to learn but ur not willing to a touch of arrogance heay.So why bother trying to tell u if u have ur head stuck in the sand.
The men are being men and are all trying to solve 'the problem'.. (That's not me having a pop by the way it's just what you menfolk do best)
Fallen is not asking or expecting it to be solved. She knows the kind of game she is playing and she knows the likelihood that she will encounter all manner of players at the table. She also know her own game and how she feels about it.
Let's face it..It just feels good to vent sometimes!
Fallen is simply saying that she's been experiencing the downside of playing online for a bit too long and to be honest it's making her frustrated. This post is NOT about the one hand mentioned at all..It's about all the times she's got the raw end of the stick and the fact that it's all she seems to be getting at present.
We all know how it feels regardless of the statistics or the odds. What she needs is a little empathy, a little undertanding and reassurances that she made the right move and that given the law of averages, things will turn around.
I applaud you all for debating it and bashing it out and trying to SOLVE it. But this (the actual point of the thread) can't be solved with numbers or theories and doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere.
Yes we all get tired of 'Bad beat stories' and 'I'm leaving' threads but at the end of the day the people on this forum are a community of players and friends and there should never be a day when we can't just say: "Mate that sucks, You're a good player.. You'll win out more times in the longrun and I hope your luck gets better.. Big hugs etc etc"
Fallen I hope the poker tide changes for you soon and you start to enjoy the tables here with us again.
The standard of play differs from table to table and from level to level. But there will always be bad players on high stakes tables and good players on low stakes tables to balance it all out. God help us.
GROUP HUG...
Wishing you a very lucky 2010 Lady. Hope to see a BRAG post from you very soon
And here we have it.. The essential difference between men and women. The men are being men and are all trying to solve 'the problem'.. (That's not me having a pop by the way it's just what you menfolk do best) Fallen is not asking or expecting it to be solved. She knows the kind of game she is playing and she knows the likelihood that she will encounter all manner of players at the table. She also know her own game and how she feels about it. Let's face it..It just feels good to vent sometimes! Fallen is simply saying that she's been experiencing the downside of playing online for a bit too long and to be honest it's making her frustrated. This post is NOT about the one hand mentioned at all..It's about all the times she's got the raw end of the stick and the fact that it's all she seems to be getting at present. We all know how it feels regardless of the statistics or the odds. What she needs is a little empathy, a little undertanding and reassurances that she made the right move and that given the law of averages, things will turn around. I applaud you all for debating it and bashing it out and trying to SOLVE it. But this (the actual point of the thread) can't be solved with numbers or theories and doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere. Yes we all get tired of 'Bad beat stories' and 'I'm leaving' threads but at the end of the day the people on this forum are a community of players and friends and there should never be a day when we can't just say: "Mate that sucks, You're a good player.. You'll win out more times in the longrun and I hope your luck gets better.. Big hugs etc etc" Fallen I hope the poker tide changes for you soon and you start to enjoy the game again. The standard of play differs from table to table and from level to level. But there will always be bad players on high stakes tables and good players on low stakes tables to balance it all out. God help us. GROUP HUG? Wishing you a very lucky 2010 Lady. Hope to see a BRAG post from you very soon xLM Posted by LML
THANK YOU SO MUCH LISA UR POST HAS CHEERED ME UP NO END AND I CONGRATULATE U ON UR UNDERSTANDING AND ADVICE.
Wow! what a thread this is turning out to be. There's been a lot of to'ing and fro'ing but a lot of it makes sense. The thing is nobody is wrong. Calling with ''bad hands'' is right in some circumstances, and good players as well as bad players do it.
I take Fallens point and, yes it's a sickener when they call with '''junk'' but it's going to happen in a tournament. I know all about that because at present anyone will hit against me with anything....it's a phase that happens again and again in poker.
To win tournaments you have to understand the very nature of a tournament. There are lots of technically good players who never win tournaments because they don't understand the dynamics involved. Winning a tournament isn't about playing every hand by the book, it isn't about playing every hand correctly and it isn't about calculating the odds for every hand. DOHHH has a good understanding of the dynamics and so he will make the ''bad'' calls at times. Winning tournaments doesn't happen as a high percentage of games played. The secret to being profitable in tournaments is to win them. Bubbling isn't important (I once bubbled in 4 - $12,000 tourneys on the trot ) winning them, or hitting the top 3 spots iS important. One win will carry you through many many bubbles and early exits.
Whenever you win a tournament you will have been lucky on a number of occasions and unlucky on some occasions too. Nobody can play a long tournament of 4+ hours and get everything right. Winning means you got more right than wrong and more importantly you made the moves at the right time. Understanding inflection points and having courage to push are not the same as playing bad hands.
64 isn't a ''bad'' hand, it's just not a good hand.
i agree with some of points,but i have had some realy bad calls aswell.i think sky poker is no where near as bad as most of the other sites out there.i agree with DOHHHHHHHH,stick to your game...oh ps need some help with my preflop raises,the other night i had ppA UTG blinds where 75/150 i raise it 750 get one caller...he pushed aalin with 107c..he had 10k in chips i had 8k..should i have raised more?????.oh he hit his flush on the river
Wow! what a thread this is turning out to be. There's been a lot of to'ing and fro'ing but a lot of it makes sense. The thing is nobody is wrong. Calling with ''bad hands'' is right in some circumstances, and good players as well as bad players do it. I take Fallens point and, yes it's a sickener when they call with '''junk'' but it's going to happen in a tournament. I know all about that because at present anyone will hit against me with anything....it's a phase that happens again and again in poker. To win tournaments you have to understand the very nature of a tournament. There are lots of technically good players who never win tournaments because they don't understand the dynamics involved. Winning a tournament isn't about playing every hand by the book, it isn't about playing every hand correctly and it isn't about calculating the odds for every hand. DOHHH has a good understanding of the dynamics and so he will make the ''bad'' calls at times. Winning tournaments doesn't happen as a high percentage of games played. The secret to being profitable in tournaments is to win them. Bubbling isn't important (I once bubbled in 4 - $12,000 tourneys on the trot ) winning them, or hitting the top 3 spots iS important. One win will carry you through many many bubbles and early exits. Whenever you win a tournament you will have been lucky on a number of occasions and unlucky on some occasions too. Nobody can play a long tournament of 4+ hours and get everything right. Winning means you got more right than wrong and more importantly you made the moves at the right time. Understanding inflection points and having courage to push are not the same as playing bad hands. 64 isn't a ''bad'' hand, it's just not a good hand. Posted by elsadog
And here is the truth !!! Brilliant mate, at last someone who understands tournament play, telling it as it really is in the real world !
Comments
Looks like its me nu V the majority VB!
Ur right I did miscalculate, it is indeed 5k to win 7.5k - which further justifies my argument.
Im not gonna admit i'm wrong if I dont think I am, that wud be daft.
As for putting it through these odds checkers or poker calculators or whatever they r called, I think theyre a waste of time, as Ive stated so many times in different threads. how can 5k to win 7.5k, a 150% R.O.I - be a bad call when im live? - Very live?
Its not a snap call, or an obvious call, Im saying its not a bad call, and its definately not a terrible call!
DOHH
END OF
Not even on about ur hand nemore - this is hy- perthetic -al !
Put it in sit and go wiz its bad.
Put it in end game tools its bad.
Both proffesional, statistical and mathmatically right.
It s a -EV call or a bad call.
But i agree it is marginal.
So for arguments sake a looser player makes the call.
A tighter player doesn't.
2. Even against the KT you are only 36% so you are not getting the correct pot odds to call even this. If he has an overpair you are 17% pre-flop. If you were calling 5K to win 10K you would be getting the correct pot odds (to call two random overcards) but in this instance that is far from the actual odds.
That is why people are saying that it is a bad call.
I wouldn't necessarily call it a "terrible" call because of meta-game considerations (e.g. a chance to knock-out an opponent and also to show other people that you are a maniac and they shouldn't try to steal your blinds) but I think most people can agree that it is a bad call.
Yeah i watch too much poker my bad if anyone makes a bad call i say terrible,i may even do a hellmuth and call you an idiot who can't spell poker.Just messing come on lighten up everyone.Feels like you seem to have a problem dohhhhhhh bringing up majorities and what not.
End of the day who do i think is correct sit and go wiz , end game tools or dohhhhhhh.
All except the last.
In Response to Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!!:
Dont get narky with me....Im just saying and trying 2 stop b4 it gets out of hand.As looks like nobody is gonna back down.
Ive never sat down and played against a computer programme oir a robot, at least I dnt think I have. Im not bothered what these programmes say. My aim is to win the tournament, as explained, Im not bothered about making the cash, ill sacrifice 4 garenteed minor cashes, for 1 crack at a final table with a healthy stack.
If u play a tourny 8 times say the primo, finish 11th 7 n win the other, whats the difference prize money wise? I bet the 1 win will pay more?
Neway im calling everytime once he tells me he has king ten, must make me one of the poor players, im happy with that as long as im winning.
DOHH
Yep you go against the odds well played.
By the way it's YB not VB.
I'll take im not bothered about these programmes as you have more to learn but ur not willing to
a touch of arrogance heay.So why bother trying to tell u if u have ur head stuck in the sand.
And here we have it..
The essential difference between men and women.
The men are being men and are all trying to solve 'the problem'..
(That's not me having a pop by the way it's just what you menfolk do best)
Fallen is not asking or expecting it to be solved. She knows the kind of game she is playing and she knows the likelihood that she will encounter all manner of players at the table. She also know her own game and how she feels about it.
Let's face it..It just feels good to vent sometimes!
Fallen is simply saying that she's been experiencing the downside of playing online for a bit too long and to be honest it's making her frustrated. This post is NOT about the one hand mentioned at all..It's about all the times she's got the raw end of the stick and the fact that it's all she seems to be getting at present.
We all know how it feels regardless of the statistics or the odds. What she needs is a little empathy, a little undertanding and reassurances that she made the right move and that given the law of averages, things will turn around.
I applaud you all for debating it and bashing it out and trying to SOLVE it. But this (the actual point of the thread) can't be solved with numbers or theories and doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere.
Yes we all get tired of 'Bad beat stories' and 'I'm leaving' threads but at the end of the day the people on this forum are a community of players and friends and there should never be a day when we can't just say: "Mate that sucks, You're a good player.. You'll win out more times in the longrun and I hope your luck gets better.. Big hugs etc etc"
Fallen I hope the poker tide changes for you soon and you start to enjoy the tables here with us again.
The standard of play differs from table to table and from level to level. But there will always be bad players on high stakes tables and good players on low stakes tables to balance it all out. God help us.
GROUP HUG...
Wishing you a very lucky 2010 Lady. Hope to see a BRAG post from you very soon
xLM
THINK MIND READER WILL B A GOOD JOB 4 U XX
I take Fallens point and, yes it's a sickener when they call with '''junk'' but it's going to happen in a tournament. I know all about that because at present anyone will hit against me with anything....it's a phase that happens again and again in poker.
To win tournaments you have to understand the very nature of a tournament. There are lots of technically good players who never win tournaments because they don't understand the dynamics involved. Winning a tournament isn't about playing every hand by the book, it isn't about playing every hand correctly and it isn't about calculating the odds for every hand. DOHHH has a good understanding of the dynamics and so he will make the ''bad'' calls at times. Winning tournaments doesn't happen as a high percentage of games played. The secret to being profitable in tournaments is to win them. Bubbling isn't important (I once bubbled in 4 - $12,000 tourneys on the trot ) winning them, or hitting the top 3 spots iS important. One win will carry you through many many bubbles and early exits.
Whenever you win a tournament you will have been lucky on a number of occasions and unlucky on some occasions too. Nobody can play a long tournament of 4+ hours and get everything right. Winning means you got more right than wrong and more importantly you made the moves at the right time. Understanding inflection points and having courage to push are not the same as playing bad hands.
64 isn't a ''bad'' hand, it's just not a good hand.