In Response to Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!! : Johnny Chan won it in 1987 which surely should have made him one of the best players in the world when he also won it in 1988. So is 1988 the right answer? if not I will look up trains on google instead lol Posted by POKERTREV
I would suggest Stu Ungar in 1997, the last of his 3 wins and the year before he tragically died.
In Response to Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!! : I would suggest Stu Ungar in 1997, the last of his 3 wins and the year before he tragically died. Posted by Seagull158
and if you're looking to find a bit more aggression when you go deep in a tourny then just remember Ungar's quote "I just want to destroy peope at the poker table"!
HI TIKAY YOUR POST HERE OF THE 7 8 SUITED SITUATION IS IN MOST PLAYERS OPINIONS A NO BRAINER,AND OF COURSE THAT IS CORRECT.BUT I THINK THIS STRAYS AWAY SLIGHTLY FROM THE MAIN ISSUE OF RECENT THREADS INCLUDING XFALLENXS ONE HERE.IN THAT I MEAN PLAYERS CALLING ALL-INS WITH HANDS LIKE 4 9 OFF OR 2 6 OFF AS EXAMPLES.IF U ARE SHORT STACKED OR HUGELY STACKED THEN YES SURE ANY 2 CARDS,BUT WHEN ITS LIKE A 6K ALL-IN EVEN STACKS SURELY IT MUST BE CLASSED AS VERY VERY BAD PLAY.IT IS THOSE KINDS OF WINNING CALLS THAT THE LIKES OF XFALLENX AND CO ARE MOANING AT.IVE NOTICED A FEW PLAYERS LATELY PM ING ME AND DAV SAYING THEY HAVE LEFT AND THE ONLY REASON THEY GAVE WAS BECAUSE OF THE POOR STANDARD OF PLAY AT THE TABLES AT THE MOMENT.WELL I AM NOT ONE OF THOSE AND I AM FINISHING THIS POST TO GO AND PLAY SOME POKER.GL TO ALL DEBS XX
The whole debate is very simple. The worse the opposition plays, the better it is. Of course they hit sometimes, but over time, give me a table of bad players, who "call" all day long, & I'd take them over good players any day.
I'm afraid the debate as to whether we should prefer to play better or worse players rather goes over my head. Calling Stations are always an irritant, of course they are, but without them, it'd be pretty tough to get by.
If people choose to go elsewhere to play because the standard of play is felt to be better elsewhere, I wish them well - I truly do.
Personally, I don't care who or how many people tell me otherwise. I'm very proud of the way the standard of play here is improving over time, & our record in Vegas suggests we ain't too dusty. There's no shame in bigging up our players.
Thanks Debs, & I wish you luck in the game. The whole debate is very simple. The worse the opposition plays, the better it is. Of course they hit sometimes, but over time, give me a table of bad players, who "call" all day long, & I'd take them over good players any day. I'm afraid the debate as to whether we should prefer to play better or worse players rather goes over my head. Calling Stations are always an irritant, of course they are, but without them, it'd be pretty tough to get by. If people choose to go elsewhere to play because the standard of play is felt to be better elsewhere, I wish them well - I truly do. Personally, I don't care who or how many people tell me otherwise. I'm very proud of the way the standard of play here is improving over time, & our record in Vegas suggests we ain't too dusty. There's no shame in bigging up our players. Posted by Tikay10
THERE ARE INDEED SOME VERY CLASSY PLAYERS ON THIS SITE,DEFO NOT DENYING THAT.AND OF COURSE IT WILL PAY TO PLAY BAD PLAYERS OVER TIME.I MEAN LOOK AT ALL THE CASH AND CHIPS I AM DONATING.LOL GL DEBS XX
BTW DAV SAID ARE YOU IN THE TKO WINNERS TOURNY 2NITE? IF SO GL
I saw a lovely play yesterday, by the way. It was a 227 runner Tourney, & there were 51 players left. It went All-In (he covered everyone), Call All-In, Call All-In, & then the BB, sat there with 5 x Big Blinds, called too. The first 3 players showed...... A-A Q-Q T-T The Big Blind (remember he had 5 x BB) had 8s-7s. And he won Pot 1, & quadrupled up. Nobody raised an eyebrow. It might surprise some of you to see the pre-flop odds, which were..... A-A = 52.3% Q-Q = 16.3% T-T = 14.0% 5d-4d = 17.4% So 8-7 man was SECOND favourite in a 4 way coup v A-A, Q-Q & T-T. So, if all three hands were face up, 8-7 man should snap call. And he did. It was not on Sky Poker, by the way. It was a £100 Live Tourney. ANY player who understands poker would call there in a heartbeat. Note, by the way, that A-A man was only even-money. In other words, he was effectively flipping. He was a marginal favourite against "the field", that's all. If we hypothetically added a FIFTH player into the mix, wiith, say, K-K, A-A man is now only 42% to win. So he is not even favourite in the coup. He has the best chance, but he's not favourite to win "against the field". Funny things, numbers, & a fascinating game, poker. Those who can figure the stats & the maths do OK. Posted by Tikay10
IS IT JUST ME OR WOULD ANY1 ELSE DECK THE 6 7 .. I WOULD DEK IT EVERY TIME ..CALLING WITH 67 WEN 3 PLAYERS ARE ALL IN......I NO THE 67 ENDS UP 2ND FAV PRE FLOP BUT SHULIALY THE 67 COULD FIND A BETTER SPOT............... I DID CLASS MYSELF AS A PRITTY DECENT PLAYER BEFOR THIS POST.............ANYWAY GOOD LUCK TO YOU ALL SIX SEVENERS.....IM GOING BAK ON THE PLAY TABLES......LOLOLOL.....................
In Response to Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!! : IS IT JUST ME OR WOULD ANY1 ELSE DECK THE 6 7 .. I WOULD DEK IT EVERY TIME ..CALLING WITH 67 WEN 3 PLAYERS ARE ALL IN......I NO THE 67 ENDS UP 2ND FAV PRE FLOP BUT SHULIALY THE 67 COULD FIND A BETTER SPOT............... I DID CLASS MYSELF AS A PRITTY DECENT PLAYER BEFOR THIS POST.............ANYWAY GOOD LUCK TO YOU ALL SIX SEVENERS.....IM GOING BAK ON THE PLAY TABLES......LOLOLOL..................... Posted by zxghostxz
Hi Mr Ghost.
Ask any competent player, & they will give you the same answer, 100% of the time. It's THE dream spot for him, & it does not matter if he wins or loses - it's the best spot he'll ever ever find. Ever.
PS - Ever.
I wager now - when Dohhhhhhh & Co come on, they'll say the same thing.
Weird, but true.
It's hard to grasp the concept that 7-8 is better than QQ & TT in that spot, but if you think it through, it becomes obvious.
In Response to Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!! : Just a bit! The thing was, none of the "Big Pair" boys chuntered or complained. They understand that if you play poker, these things will happen, & they are equipped to cope with a little adversity. If you can only enjoy Poker when you win a hand, or a Tourney, it's best to play something else! The WSOP Main Event is, arguaby, the best Tournament in the world. How long is it since the best player in the world won it? You'll need to go back a few years! It's called variance, & every poker player needs to understand it. Posted by Tikay10
There are a few points here which in tournament play are vital to understand.
1. None of the ''big pairs '' complained. Red-zone players should call in this situation, and knowledgeable players should not only understand it, but should be expecting it.
2, The expectation of winning/cashing often in tournaments is unrealistic. Cashing for the sake of cashing, without having your sights on ''the win'' can and will cost you money in the long run. Take a look at the cashing to number played stats of the top internet players. One in eight or about 12% seems to be the magic figure for profitability.
3. The best players don't always win tournaments, they just win more than the rest of us.
In Response to Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!! : Hi Mr Ghost. Ask any competent player, & they will give you the same answer, 100% of the time. It's THE dream spot for him, & it does not matter if he wins or loses - it's the best spot he'll ever ever find. Ever. PS - Ever. I wager now - when Dohhhhhhh & Co come on, they'll say the same thing. Weird, but true. It's hard to grasp the concept that 7-8 is better than QQ & TT in that spot, but if you think it through, it becomes obvious. Posted by Tikay10
What Mr Shortstack is looking for is a 3 or 4 way pot with any two live cards. That way IF he takes it down he becomes a contender. Waiting for a ''better'' opportunity is faulty logic. Waiting for the monster might double him up or get him the blinds but his predicament remains the same.........he's still short stacked. Playing this way he might go up a place in the prize-money if he is lucky but he'll never win it without a freaky run of monster cards.
In Response to Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!! : Hi Mr Ghost. Ask any competent player, & they will give you the same answer, 100% of the time. It's THE dream spot for him, & it does not matter if he wins or loses - it's the best spot he'll ever ever find. Ever. PS - Ever. I wager now - when Dohhhhhhh & Co come on, they'll say the same thing. Weird, but true. It's hard to grasp the concept that 7-8 is better than QQ & TT in that spot, but if you think it through, it becomes obvious. Posted by Tikay10
Yeh I agree its a call, how much was it, 6bbs behind? definately a call, after 3 all ins before me here Im glad to see hands like 23, 34, 45, 56, 67 etc etc rather than ace 7,8,9,10,J.....
But the example given was so much of a no brainer, I dnt think it fully got the point across about how calling with any 2 can sometimes be either correct, or definately worth considering.
Mid - late stage of a deepstack tourny with a large field,.....
average stack = 100k.
blinds 2k 4k.
UTG raises to 12k, 5 callers round to the big blind, we are chip leader with 300k and look down at 67 off! - What ya gonna do?
Ill tell ya now Im calling, the flop comes 3,4,5 rainbow, end up 3 players all in, bloke UTG had quite rightly raised with aces, horrorfied to see 5 callers behind, but cant get away. Player in late position has called pre to try and make a set with 33 44 or 55, getting the right price and implied odds, he isnt going away.
I have the nuts, eliminate 2 players, and lenghten my chip lead - by speculatively calling pre flop with a weak hand, because it was the right play.
Then the chatbox goes u f* **in donk, eediot, u will go broke, they weren't even suited!! etc etc etc.....
The point is, going back to the origional headline of this thread, "Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!!" --- Just because a bloke is holding a bad hand, or 2 poor cards....doesnt mean the standard of play is poor!
YOU HAVE STRAYED FROM THE THREAD AGAIN DOHX7.YOUR REPLY HERE IS ABOUT TIKAYS INSTANCE,THE MAIN THREAD WAS RELATED TO HANDS SUCH AS 9 4 OFF AS AN EXAMPLE ON LEVEL STACKS EARLY OR MID TOURNY CALLING ALL-INS.IF YOU WAS NOT AWARE OF THIS JUST ASK XFALLENX OR OTHERS WHO HAVE MADE SIMILAR POSTS.I DO THINK THOUGH THAT THIS HAS BEEN A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME AS IT STILL DOESNT ALTER THE FACT SOME PLAYERS WILL DO WHAT I SAID HERE WITH JUNK.JUST A PITY I CANT SEEM TO FIND ALL OF THEM.LOL GL DOHX7 LUV DEBS XX
I agree with Tikay. It really is quite simple imo.. Put it like this wat would u rather play against, 10 players who play the game how u do who are solid players as good & sum maybe better than u are? Ur odds of winning overall then are surely far less likely & less profitable than playing a table of fish/ chancers/ who overall the odds are against! I understand the frustration of losing hands to those types of players but u have to remember that these players are the bread & butter for most good players on any poker site & to suggest any kind of discrimination against these players would imo be absurd & very unsportsmanly. Unquestionably there is an element of luck in poker, & players can call with bad cards & get lucky but the majority of the time they call with bad cards they will be whittling their chips away.
Example- I was playing 2p/4p the other day & there was a player going crazy in the chat window calling another player an idiot,fish etc etc coz he'd had afew bad beats. I thought this was largely unfair so pointed out that this table was a BEGINNERS table! This table SHOULD be where BEGINNERS get the chance to improve there game, learn from their mistakes & make bad calls & if any decent player is narrow minded enough to play these tables with that in mind then abuse novice players for bad beats then they only have there selves to blame. This is however just my thoughts & opinion & I feel being a good loser when it happens against wateva cards the opposition has is just as important as being a good winner!
When we move in with J-J & get called by 8-2, the 8-2 wins sometimes. Not often, but now & then.
We don't complain - in fact, we permit ourselves a little smug smile - when 8-2 numpty makes his ridiculous Call & loses.
In fact, over time - & this is not disputable - 8-2 man loses this coup almost nine times in 10. And we smile smugly nine times in 10.
So, all things consdidered, it behoves us to lose with dignity, & show a little mental fortitude, when, on the 10th occasion, our numpty friend gets his token win.
And we NEED him to win now & then - he's our seedcorn. He's the soft touch at the Table who enables us average players to do OK.
The thread began with the comment "I'm fed up with these bad players....I moved onto this Site to get away from them".
Well you cannot get away from them - they are everywhere, Live & Online. Thank goodness.
We can't have our cake & eat it. We're happy to take their money 9 times in 10. So we ought to be a little more gracious in defeat 1 time in 10.
That's the thing with poker. It shows who can face up to the wind & rain in their face, when the going gets tough.
Thanks Lord Earl, nice first Post, too. When we move in with J-J & get called by 8-2, the 8-2 wins sometimes. Not often, but now & then. We don't complain - in fact, we permit ourselves a little smug smile - when 8-2 numpty makes his ridiculous Call & loses. In fact, over time - & this is not disputable - 8-2 man loses this coup almost nine times in 10. And we smile smugly nine times in 10. So, all things consdidered, it behoves us to lose with dignity, & show a little mental fortitude, when, on the 10th occasion, our numpty friend gets his token win. And we NEED him to win now & then - he's our seedcorn. He's the soft touch at the Table who enables us average players to do OK. The thread began with the comment "I'm fed up with these bad players....I moved onto this Site to get away from them". Well you cannot get away from them - they are everywhere, Live & Online. Thank goodness. We can't have our cake & eat it. We're happy to take their money 9 times in 10. So we ought to be a little more gracious in defeat 1 time in 10. That's the thing with poker. It shows who can face up to the wind & rain in their face, when the going gets tough. Posted by Tikay10
In Response to Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!! : NICE PERSONAL ATTACK CHEERS Posted by xFALLENx
Hi xfallenx.I dont think some of them realise just how often you and some others are suffering these strange bad beats.If it was just 1 in 10 im sure you wouldnt even notice it yourself.GL ure mate debs xx
Thankyou Tikay, & perfectly put & more articulate than myself
Heres another thought... What about the guy who is a solid player 99% of the time with a good track record & a consistently accumilating bankroll. BUT occasionally on a fri night after afew shandys enjoys to purely gamble a minute undetremental percentage of his bankroll to play the role of the 'underdog' for the sheer smugness of hitting with a badbeat! At that point this player would be thought of as a fish or suchlike by everyone at that table correct? Its reasonable to assume that odds are overall his fri night play will see him at a loss. HOWEVER if the other players at that table remember him as a fish, then when they come across him the other 99% of the time when he's playing his game solid it is more likely he will be underestimated. Just an interesting viewpoint I think?
In Response to Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!! : NICE PERSONAL ATTACK CHEERS Posted by xFALLENx
I think you are missing the point. Tikay has not made a personal attack he merely replied to my viewpoint & made a generalisation that in poker there is an element of luck which has to be understood & respected, & made a generalisation that in this game it pays to take the rough with the smooth! Im not quite sure wat ur argument is? U seem to hav suffered some unfortunate bad 'luck' against some players calling with bad cards & getting lucky! Just bcoz the odds are 'generally' 1 in 10 in ur favour with good cards doesnt mean u cant lose to badbeats in succession & have a bad run it just means uv been terribly unlucky! Stick with it & I have no doubt u will see ur luck pick up & good play pay off!
In Response to Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!! : Hi xfallenx.I dont think some of them realise just how often you and some others are suffering these strange bad beats.If it was just 1 in 10 im sure you wouldnt even notice it yourself.GL ure mate debs xx Posted by debdobs_67
1 in 10 was just for the example Tikay used (jj v 82), everything he said is essentially true.
If you go all-in with a-k and get called by 8-2 and then get beat with a 2 on the river, it looks horrendous so you will remember it as a "strange" bad beat. However, 8-2 will win 32% of the time! But because it looks like such a terrible call, many people will cry that they got sucked out by a 7% chance on the river, conveniently forgetting that they were likely to lose 1 in 3 times pre-flop.
This is why mentally accepting (and appreciating) bad beats, bad luck and bad players is crucial to progressing in poker. Tikay was not attacking Fallen, only trying to help her, I hope she can look at his post again in a different light and learn the essential truths within it.
Comments
Thanks Debs, & I wish you luck in the game.
The whole debate is very simple. The worse the opposition plays, the better it is. Of course they hit sometimes, but over time, give me a table of bad players, who "call" all day long, & I'd take them over good players any day.
I'm afraid the debate as to whether we should prefer to play better or worse players rather goes over my head. Calling Stations are always an irritant, of course they are, but without them, it'd be pretty tough to get by.
If people choose to go elsewhere to play because the standard of play is felt to be better elsewhere, I wish them well - I truly do.
Personally, I don't care who or how many people tell me otherwise. I'm very proud of the way the standard of play here is improving over time, & our record in Vegas suggests we ain't too dusty. There's no shame in bigging up our players.
BTW DAV SAID ARE YOU IN THE TKO WINNERS TOURNY 2NITE? IF SO GL
Ask any competent player, & they will give you the same answer, 100% of the time. It's THE dream spot for him, & it does not matter if he wins or loses - it's the best spot he'll ever ever find. Ever.
PS - Ever.
I wager now - when Dohhhhhhh & Co come on, they'll say the same thing.
Weird, but true.
It's hard to grasp the concept that 7-8 is better than QQ & TT in that spot, but if you think it through, it becomes obvious.
The TT call is the only poor decision there
1. None of the ''big pairs '' complained. Red-zone players should call in this situation, and knowledgeable players should not only understand it, but should be expecting it.
2, The expectation of winning/cashing often in tournaments is unrealistic. Cashing for the sake of cashing, without having your sights on ''the win'' can and will cost you money in the long run. Take a look at the cashing to number played stats of the top internet players. One in eight or about 12% seems to be the magic figure for profitability.
3. The best players don't always win tournaments, they just win more than the rest of us.
But the example given was so much of a no brainer, I dnt think it fully got the point across about how calling with any 2 can sometimes be either correct, or definately worth considering.
Mid - late stage of a deepstack tourny with a large field,.....
average stack = 100k.
blinds 2k 4k.
UTG raises to 12k, 5 callers round to the big blind, we are chip leader with 300k and look down at 67 off! - What ya gonna do?
Ill tell ya now Im calling, the flop comes 3,4,5 rainbow, end up 3 players all in, bloke UTG had quite rightly raised with aces, horrorfied to see 5 callers behind, but cant get away. Player in late position has called pre to try and make a set with 33 44 or 55, getting the right price and implied odds, he isnt going away.
I have the nuts, eliminate 2 players, and lenghten my chip lead - by speculatively calling pre flop with a weak hand, because it was the right play.
Then the chatbox goes u f* **in donk, eediot, u will go broke, they weren't even suited!! etc etc etc.....
The point is, going back to the origional headline of this thread, "Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!!" --- Just because a bloke is holding a bad hand, or 2 poor cards....doesnt mean the standard of play is poor!
DOHH
Put it like this wat would u rather play against, 10 players who play the game how u do who are solid players as good & sum maybe better than u are? Ur odds of winning overall then are surely far less likely & less profitable than playing a table of fish/ chancers/ who overall the odds are against! I understand the frustration of losing hands to those types of players but u have to remember that these players are the bread & butter for most good players on any poker site & to suggest any kind of discrimination against these players would imo be absurd & very unsportsmanly. Unquestionably there is an element of luck in poker, & players can call with bad cards & get lucky but the majority of the time they call with bad cards they will be whittling their chips away.
Example- I was playing 2p/4p the other day & there was a player going crazy in the chat window calling another player an idiot,fish etc etc coz he'd had afew bad beats. I thought this was largely unfair so pointed out that this table was a BEGINNERS table! This table SHOULD be where BEGINNERS get the chance to improve there game, learn from their mistakes & make bad calls & if any decent player is narrow minded enough to play these tables with that in mind then abuse novice players for bad beats then they only have there selves to blame.
This is however just my thoughts & opinion & I feel being a good loser when it happens against wateva cards the opposition has is just as important as being a good winner!
Thanks Lord Earl, nice first Post, too.
When we move in with J-J & get called by 8-2, the 8-2 wins sometimes. Not often, but now & then.
We don't complain - in fact, we permit ourselves a little smug smile - when 8-2 numpty makes his ridiculous Call & loses.
In fact, over time - & this is not disputable - 8-2 man loses this coup almost nine times in 10. And we smile smugly nine times in 10.
So, all things consdidered, it behoves us to lose with dignity, & show a little mental fortitude, when, on the 10th occasion, our numpty friend gets his token win.
And we NEED him to win now & then - he's our seedcorn. He's the soft touch at the Table who enables us average players to do OK.
The thread began with the comment "I'm fed up with these bad players....I moved onto this Site to get away from them".
Well you cannot get away from them - they are everywhere, Live & Online. Thank goodness.
We can't have our cake & eat it. We're happy to take their money 9 times in 10. So we ought to be a little more gracious in defeat 1 time in 10.
That's the thing with poker. It shows who can face up to the wind & rain in their face, when the going gets tough.
In Response to Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!!:
NICE PERSONAL ATTACKCHEERS
Thankyou Tikay, & perfectly put & more articulate than myself
Heres another thought...
What about the guy who is a solid player 99% of the time with a good track record & a consistently accumilating bankroll. BUT occasionally on a fri night after afew shandys enjoys to purely gamble a minute undetremental percentage of his bankroll to play the role of the 'underdog' for the sheer smugness of hitting with a badbeat! At that point this player would be thought of as a fish or suchlike by everyone at that table correct? Its reasonable to assume that odds are overall his fri night play will see him at a loss.
HOWEVER if the other players at that table remember him as a fish, then when they come across him the other 99% of the time when he's playing his game solid it is more likely he will be underestimated. Just an interesting viewpoint I think?
Im not quite sure wat ur argument is? U seem to hav suffered some unfortunate bad 'luck' against some players calling with bad cards & getting lucky! Just bcoz the odds are 'generally' 1 in 10 in ur favour with good cards doesnt mean u cant lose to badbeats in succession & have a bad run it just means uv been terribly unlucky! Stick with it & I have no doubt u will see ur luck pick up & good play pay off!
If you go all-in with a-k and get called by 8-2 and then get beat with a 2 on the river, it looks horrendous so you will remember it as a "strange" bad beat. However, 8-2 will win 32% of the time! But because it looks like such a terrible call, many people will cry that they got sucked out by a 7% chance on the river, conveniently forgetting that they were likely to lose 1 in 3 times pre-flop.
This is why mentally accepting (and appreciating) bad beats, bad luck and bad players is crucial to progressing in poker. Tikay was not attacking Fallen, only trying to help her, I hope she can look at his post again in a different light and learn the essential truths within it.