Scotty I think Webby doesn't understand, this is cash Webby, not a DYM where you fold everything to an all in except AA or KK for the first 5 levels. This is the hand I've been waiting for, my target has shoved again, we know we are going to be 60% or more ahead the majority of times, so snap it off, and if we lose, reload again.
1 - losing 200+ big blinds is really gonna hurt you, and if thats the case you shouldnt be at the table, as ur not rolled.
2 - losing that big pot, will send you into monkey tilt which will cost you most of ur roll over the next few hours.
Both of these suggest you shouldnt even be playing, let alone reloading to the max.
Seems like you have the gist though and just wanted confirmation.
Lot of good players giving their advice here. Webby, you would do well not to alienate these players as these could help you no end further down the road.
Also, ppl that are justifying call/fold or w/e by saying `IMO`. A lot of decisions in cash, have nothing to do with opinions. They are either mathematically correct or incorrect. If you are using your opinion and folding, it is more likely it is due to one of the points I made above.
FWIW webby, I would love to have the input that some of these players have made on this thread in some of mine
OK this is my final post on this subject...... it's just for Webby...... I don't know how to simplify it more...... You have £1000 you use for poker/gambling One day yr walking past the greengrocers and he shouts you over Lined up on a table he has 6 red and 4 green apples and 10 buckets He says you can have 100 goes at picking one of the 6 red apples from underneath a bucket for £5 per go and for each correct guess he will give you another £5. You think for a while and do the maths....... 100 x £5 = £500 cost You will guess correctly on average 6 times out of 10 or 60 times out of 100. Your expectation is therefore 60 x £10 minus yr stake = £100 profit. Do you accept the greengrocers offer? Oh and just as an addition....... our expectation in the hand in question is greater than 6/10 for every go..... Your move? Posted by cottlad
I was going to stay out of this "discussion" but I can't help myself now.
To extend this analogy, we know for a fact that there is another grocer down the street who is offering the same deal but has 7 red apples and 3 green apples (or even 7.5 green apples and 2.5 red apples).
But we've got a hole in our pocket and we're dripping £1 coins as we walk. Also, there's a chance that the other grocer will have shut up shop (for the day) by time we get there or will have gone bust because someone else has had a go at his apples and been successful.
So to make a "mathematical" decision, we need to know the distance to the next greengrocer and how much money other people might wager with him and the likelihood of him closing for the day before we get there. Without this information we cannot make the a fully informed mathematical decision.
For those who are not keen on analogies, what we need (at least) to be able to make a full mathematical decision are:
1. the equity (i.e. the likelihood of us winning) that we have with our current hand against our opponent's "range"
2. the average equity that we would have if we wait for one of a range of better hands
3. how many hands will we have to wait (on average) before getting one of these hands
4. the stack sizes of the other players at the table and their likelihood to call an aipf by the villain (i.e. how likely is he to go broke before we get to call him)
5. the likelihood of the villain leaving the table with his stack intact (or changing his game plan)
6. the stack sizes relative to the blinds
It is not always the case that we should make the call because it is +EV for this particular hand and our opponent's range. If our equity is 51% (say) it would certainly be better to wait for a stronger hand. Therefore, it is a matter of judgement as to whether to call weighing up all the factors above.
Having said all that, 60% is significant equity and most successful cash players would call. The reason for this being that waiting for an opportunity where we have 75% (or similar) equity would take too long and involve the risk of us never getting the opportunity to call an aipf from this opponent.
Webby, I know you like a bit of contraversy but your comments about the high stakes players doesn't stack up mate.
Are they better because they "Play" higher stakes? NO they are better because they WIN at higher stakes. If these guys were people who deposited thousands and donked it off then fair enough but these are people who have built rolls by consistantly making the right play. They are sharing the information that they have built up over extended periods of playing at those stakes and making money from it. It's one of those "When This Guy Speaks, You Should Listen" type situations. If you ever decide to play cash games these are EXACTLY the guys you want commenting on your hands.
strange hand love the thread haha i love reading arguments. its a tricky one, if im at a table vs a guy whos having it all his own way then id reluctant to call. thing is, everyone who plays high stakes would call this yeah, if this hand was the equivalent at 200nl would you want to go allin for £500 with a-j suited when even if he has the likes of 9-q your still not that big of a favourite to risk £500 especially as to have 500 you would have got it up from 200 so very risky, and on the off chance he doesnt have you crushed well. your hoping he has a lower jack or lower ace, i dont think i could call this, let him have his 4p
What a great thread this has been with so much input from the BIGGER cash players.The 2 players who i will not name consistently saying FOLD are never ever going to be good cash players.FWIW i play 5p/10p,10p/20p and sometimes 15p/30p and with the info i have on this particular player i CALL all day long.Once again ty for all the input from some of the players and TPers.dav
I don't play that high stakes but can't imagine people openly shoving with rubbish like K-4 every few hands so although the comparison is the same it's hard to relate the two. Also the odds are the same no matter the stakes and are playing within the same limits of their bankroll, so I imagine people at the higher stakes are still making the call.
What a great thread this has been with so much input from the BIGGER cash players.The 2 players who i will not name consistently saying FOLD are never ever going to be good cash players.FWIW i play 5p/10p,10p/20p and sometimes 15p/30p and with the info i have on this particular player i CALL all day long.Once again ty for all the input from some of the players and TPers.dav Posted by dav1964
i have no knowledge of this player, just what the OP has said, have you met him on these stakes then dav? if so he is surely playing at a crazy level, talk about a jump in stakes
Webby, I know you like a bit of contraversy but your comments about the high stakes players doesn't stack up mate. Are they better because they "Play" higher stakes? NO they are better because they WIN at higher stakes. If these guys were people who deposited thousands and donked it off then fair enough but these are people who have built rolls by consistantly making the right play. They are sharing the information that they have built up over extended periods of playing at those stakes and making money from it. It's one of those "When This Guy Speaks, You Should Listen" type situations. If you ever decide to play cash games these are EXACTLY the guys you want commenting on your hands. Posted by ACESOVER8s
aces i know they are good players and would call but i wouldnt its that simple, by the way not all good players play the higher stakes, there are some donks who play at that level
What a great thread this has been with so much input from the BIGGER cash players.The 2 players who i will not name consistently saying FOLD are never ever going to be good cash players.FWIW i play 5p/10p,10p/20p and sometimes 15p/30p and with the info i have on this particular player i CALL all day long.Once again ty for all the input from some of the players and TPers.dav Posted by dav1964
i am assuming i am one of the players you talk about here dav?
right if i am in the same situation as blackfish then yes i do call all day long, 2 reasons really.
1, because i am fed up of this guy keep shoving with dirt and getting lucky 2, because i am a gambler and love to feel the rush of those split second decisions
i dont make the call because i think i am at least a 60% fav, its amazing how many high stakes players on here are assuming its a guaranteed certainty to be a 60% favourite, they havent even considered the guy could be shoving with qq or kk like he did last time?
In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : i am assuming i am one of the players you talk about here dav? right if i am in the same situation as blackfish then yes i do call all day long, 2 reasons really. 1, because i am fed up of this guy keep shoving with dirt and getting lucky 2, because i am a gambler and love to feel the rush of those split second decisions i dont make the call because i think i am at least a 60% fav, its amazing how many high stakes players on here are assuming its a guaranteed certainty to be a 60% favourite, they havent even considered the guy could be shoving with qq or kk like he did last time? Posted by webby234
You do not understand. You have misunderstood (perhaps deliberately) what they have said.
They are not saying that they are a certainty to be 60% favourite - far from it.
They are saying that they are 60% against his probable range.
I'm VERY surprised that you are still failing to grasp this concept.
Also, your comments about there being bad players at NL200 are irrelevant since it is not those players who are offering advice here.
how do they know is probably range? they are going on what someone else has said.
cant be bothered to go back through the thread and read it all again but am sure blackfish has said that hes won 3 races against him so far and pushed all in in same position with KK?
ps: all the players who have posted on this thread, not all are great, there are a couple of fishes amng us you know
Blackfish stated how often the guy had gone all in.
From this you can deduce his range.
It's not an exact science (and certainly not over this small a sample) but given the frequency of his aipf bets and the hands that he showed it is reasonable to assume that he is raising with at least the top 30% of hands - this is what defines his range.
It then follows that AsJs is 60% against that range.
a lot of skill required you fool, maybe you cant play a DYM becuase you wanna play every pot and get involved with raggy cards, get back on your cash table and leave us DYM players alone!!!!
Comments
1 - losing 200+ big blinds is really gonna hurt you, and if thats the case you shouldnt be at the table, as ur not rolled.
2 - losing that big pot, will send you into monkey tilt which will cost you most of ur roll over the next few hours.
Both of these suggest you shouldnt even be playing, let alone reloading to the max.
Seems like you have the gist though and just wanted confirmation.
Lot of good players giving their advice here. Webby, you would do well not to alienate these players as these could help you no end further down the road.
Also, ppl that are justifying call/fold or w/e by saying `IMO`. A lot of decisions in cash, have nothing to do with opinions. They are either mathematically correct or incorrect.
If you are using your opinion and folding, it is more likely it is due to one of the points I made above.
FWIW webby, I would love to have the input that some of these players have made on this thread in some of mine
Are they better because they "Play" higher stakes? NO they are better because they WIN at higher stakes. If these guys were people who deposited thousands and donked it off then fair enough but these are people who have built rolls by consistantly making the right play. They are sharing the information that they have built up over extended periods of playing at those stakes and making money from it. It's one of those "When This Guy Speaks, You Should Listen" type situations. If you ever decide to play cash games these are EXACTLY the guys you want commenting on your hands.
CALL CALL CALL!!
right if i am in the same situation as blackfish then yes i do call all day long, 2 reasons really.
1, because i am fed up of this guy keep shoving with dirt and getting lucky
2, because i am a gambler and love to feel the rush of those split second decisions
i dont make the call because i think i am at least a 60% fav, its amazing how many high stakes players on here are assuming its a guaranteed certainty to be a 60% favourite, they havent even considered the guy could be shoving with qq or kk like he did last time?
cant be bothered to go back through the thread and read it all again but am sure blackfish has said that hes won 3 races against him so far and pushed all in in same position with KK?
ps: all the players who have posted on this thread, not all are great, there are a couple of fishes amng us you know
small stake, fast blinds,dym players are all mad imo, the rake is stupid, and the game is a waste of time.