a lot of skill required you fool, maybe you cant play a DYM becuase you wanna play every pot and get involved with raggy cards, get back on your cash table and leave us DYM players alone!!!! Posted by webby234
lol
The game we play is called poker. There are different variations. Some which force the action others which don't.
DYM's are the most simple form of poker there is, there is no skill and there is no change to strategy. Tight is right. And horribly tight folds are rewarded. It's quite incredible just how much worse they managed to make a 9man top 3 pay sng, I thought they were bad!!!
I'm very sorry that I initially tried to help you. I wont do again, you obviously know too much to learn anything. (lol)
This guy has already lucked 3 all-in's against Black with dross! Whether we like it or not players (even bad ones) do have dream runs - the better players call it variance!! So why oh why with this knowledge would I allow him to win a forth on his terms...
With this in mind I would still pass this...
In favour of this...
I do not call on the basis that it is the best offer at the time...which ever way I look at this I want my money in when I know I'm a better than 60% against this player on this night...is it not better to reduce the luck/gambling element?
For 4p (or 1bb) it is an easy pass...his money will still be there but there is no chance of mine joining his stack on his terms. Different player, different outcome!!
This guy has already lucked 3 all-in's against Black with dross! Whether we like it or not players (even bad ones) do have dream runs - the better players call it variance!! So why oh why with this knowledge would I allow him to win a forth on his terms... With this in mind I would still pass this... In favour of this... I do not call on the basis that it is the best offer at the time...which ever way I look at this I want my money in when I know I'm a better than 60% against this player on this night...is it not better to reduce the luck/gambling element? For 4p (or 1bb) it is an easy pass...his money will still be there but there is no chance of mine joining his stack on his terms. Different player, different outcome!! x Posted by TRIP5
The probabilities of each event are mutually exclusive, it's not conditional that after you win a few you're more likely to win another. The maths never changes. All you're looking at doing is getting your money in good, obviously it is your money so you can try and choose what advantage you get it in with. However if you were going to be happy to always get it in with QQ preflop vs a tight player (who would get AK, and QQ+ in pre) because QQ 'is a good hand' then you are taking a worse gamble than if you get AJs in vs a set of hands that could hold anything. All hand strengths and values in poker are relative, both preflop and post flop.
This guy has already lucked 3 all-in's against Black with dross! Whether we like it or not players (even bad ones) do have dream runs - the better players call it variance!! So why oh why with this knowledge would I allow him to win a forth on his terms... With this in mind I would still pass this... In favour of this... I do not call on the basis that it is the best offer at the time...which ever way I look at this I want my money in when I know I'm a better than 60% against this player on this night...is it not better to reduce the luck/gambling element? For 4p (or 1bb) it is an easy pass...his money will still be there but there is no chance of mine joining his stack on his terms. Different player, different outcome!! x Posted by TRIP5
His moneu won't still be there is exactly the point. If Black has reduced his holdings to put him on a range then 1 2 or even all of the other players will have a similar impression. If you don't call here someone else will in the next set of hands and you could lose your value for the player when he's reduced to 10 or 20 bb's instead of being able to stack him. You can't fold when your ahead just because a guy got lucky against you before. This makes no sense and your ultra tight approach will not work playing cash. I understand you have your opinion on this but honestly, this one is a call, even though we know the outcome that the guy gets lucky again you can't say it's wrong to call, junk was well within the guys range and low and behold it that's exactly what he had. Blacks made the correct call
For 4p (or 1bb) it is an easy pass...his money will still be there but there is no chance of mine joining his stack on his terms. Different player, different outcome!! x Posted by TRIP5
That's the point though, it won't be. If we don't get our money in when we are a 60% favourite against the opponents perceived range then someone else will, and they'll be the ones to gain from the +EV play. What is your calling range here? If you're waiting for a spot when you have a lot more than 60% equity then chances are you won't ever got your money in against him because his cash will be all gone by the time you get QQ/KK/AA. Tbh any cash player who doesn't call when they think they are around a 60% favourite isn't going to be profitable in the long run.
In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : The probabilities of each event are mutually exclusive, it's not conditional that after you win a few you're more likely to win another. The maths never changes. All you're looking at doing is getting your money in good, obviously it is your money so you can try and choose what advantage you get it in with. However if you were going to be happy to always get it in with QQ preflop vs a tight player (who would get AK, and QQ+ in pre) because QQ 'is a good hand'then you are taking a worse gamble than if you get AJs in vs a set of hands that could hold anything. All hand strengths and values in poker are relative, both preflop and post flop. Posted by beaneh
Hey Beaneh, I know this...lol
You seem to be making assumptions about my overall poker play that are unfair and simply not true! why does everything have to be decided pre flop? It is possible to play the streets!!! I'm not sure you can take my strategy to this situation/player and apply it to my poker in general, this is an isolated case and i am offering my opinion based on the parameters provided in this instance.
Specifically in this play, If I had different hole cards or had already invested money in the pot and been raised all in then the outcome would have been different for me...but with zero invested, against this player, let him have his 4p.
I still don't think AJ - suited or not - is the best situation for me to call off my stack this time...what can I say? Even against his range he could have me dominated on this occasion or (as happened) can out draw me.
As it happens Black did the right thing according to the majority of posters and called...he happened to lose his stack on this occasion but as it was right in the long term then that's okay? I on the other hand would have not been out drawn against this guy on this occasion (I may well have been on another hand but that would be a different thread).
Why spend hours building BR to lose it all on one hand, against someone you can't get a read from? I'm not trying to be confrontational but instinct tells me to fold on this occasion, had I have called I would have wished that I hadn't!!!
As it happens - for my limit I am a successful cash player..believe it or not it's tourneys that I struggle with )
Hey Beaneh, I know this...lol You seem to be making assumptions about my overall poker play that are unfair and simply not true! why does everything have to be decided pre flop? It is possible to play the streets!!! Posted by TRIP5
errr I wasn't trying to be rude or make aspersions about your play. I was merely pointing out the flaw in your thinking regarding this situation. Saying hold em isn't a preflop game is true except when you are analysing a situation where your opponents moves all in pre flop.
If you dont think AJ is a good enough hand to call it off with then you should provide some mathematical/logical proof and reasoning. Yourself and webby have only so far given personal reasons and no explanation. There is not just 4p in the pot, he has put his stack in aswell.
The idea that because black showed he lost to a worse hand that he shouldn't call is imo moronic. You can only get your money in good, the rest is down to short term variance of the type provided by skys rng. The whole point is putting this 200bb in isn't your whole bankroll and everything you have worked for, if you are playing correctly you will be able to lose this pot, rebuy and not even think about it because you know you made the correct play.
I'm going to be brutally honest. From what you have put, about
'but with zero invested, against this player'
and
'As it happens Black did the right thing according to the majority of posters and called...he happened to lose his stack on this occasion but as it was right in the long term then that's okay?I on the other hand would have not been out drawn against this guy on this occasion'
You don't quite understand the reasons why you are doing stuff at cash.
In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : errr I wasn't trying to be rude or make aspersions about your play. I was merely pointing out the flaw in your thinking regarding this situation. Saying hold em isn't a preflop game is true except when you are analysing a situation where your opponents moves all in pre flop. If you dont think AJ is a good enough hand to call it off with then you should provide some mathematical/logical proof and reasoning. Yourself and webby have only so far given personal reasons and no explanation. There is not just 4p in the pot, he has put his stack in aswell. The idea that because black showed he lost to a worse hand that he shouldn't call is imo moronic. You can only get your money in good, the rest is down to short term variance of the type provided by skys rng. The whole point is putting this 200bb in isn't your whole bankroll and everything you have worked for, if you are playing correctly you will be able to lose this pot, rebuy and not even think about it because you know you made the correct play. I'm going to be brutally honest. From what you have put, about ' but with zero invested, against this player' and 'As it happens Black did the right thing according to the majority of posters and called... he happened to lose his stack on this occasion but as it was right in the long term then that's okay? I on the other hand would have not been out drawn against this guy on this occasion' You don't quite understand the reasons why you are doing stuff at cash. Posted by beaneh
Not true, I actually stated on page 1 of this post that I would have folded, and I understand your reason for advising Black NOT to post the results for the same reason.
lol - Maybe not to your meta-level but my play suits me just fine and my caution in these types of showdowns leaves my manhatten in a nice 'steady eddie' upwardly motion while cutting down on bad beats stories...
I prefer to take the gamble out of poker as much as possible...this attitude may not work for everyone!!!
In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : Hey Beaneh, I know this...lol You seem to be making assumptions about my overall poker play that are unfair and simply not true! why does everything have to be decided pre flop? It is possible to play the streets!!! I'm not sure you can take my strategy to this situation/player and apply it to my poker in general, this is an isolated case and i am offering my opinion based on the parameters provided in this instance. Specifically in this play , If I had different hole cards or had already invested money in the pot and been raised all in then the outcome would have been different for me...but with zero invested, against this player, let him have his 4p. I still don't think AJ - suited or not - is the best situation for me to call off my stack this time...what can I say? Even against his range he could have me dominated on this occasion or (as happened) can out draw me. As it happens Black did the right thing according to the majority of posters and called...he happened to lose his stack on this occasion but as it was right in the long term then that's okay? I on the other hand would have not been out drawn against this guy on this occasion (I may well have been on another hand but that would be a different thread). Why spend hours building BR to lose it all on one hand, against someone you can't get a read from? I'm not trying to be confrontational but instinct tells me to fold on this occasion, had I have called I would have wished that I hadn't!!! As it happens - for my limit I am a successful cash player..believe it or not it's tourneys that I struggle with ) All the best x Posted by TRIP5
YES!!!!! it is right it will, in the long term make you money.
In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : Not true, I actually stated on page 1 of this post that I would have folded, and I understand your reason for advising Black NOT to post the results for the same reason. lol - Maybe not to your meta-level but my play suits me just fine and my caution in these types of showdowns leaves my manhatten in a nice 'steady eddie' upwardly motion while cutting down on bad beats stories... I prefer to take the gamble out of poker as much as possible...this attitude may not work for everyone!!! x Posted by TRIP5
And long term the only loser is going to be YOURSELF im afraid.dav
In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : And long term the only loser is going to be YOURSELF im afraid.dav Posted by dav1964
Cheers Dav, guess we'll agree to disagree on this one
hey everyone, it didn't bother me putting £10 in on this one hand because i am rolled for it, i put him on a range and worked out that with AJs i was ahead of his range enough to make it profitable despite the rake. I got sucked out on and yes it was frustrating because i was about 4 BIs up for the day until this guy killed me 4 times in a row, I was telling strat91 about it and explained it all... he told me it was a bad call, imo he's a very good low stakes player and so obviously i was going to listen but couldn't comprehend how being a 60% favourite against his range was wrong and he told me to post it on here... at first i got told it was a fold and i assumed it must be, but still i couldn't comprehend why because i was significantly ahead of his range... so ty to the big guns for reassuring me that its a call because at the time i fist pump called. Few hands before he shoved with a rag ace and got called by another rag ace... i was really worried by this because he was getting called sooo lightly that he could easily be stacked before its my chance.
oh btw please stop dym bashing !!! i think dym can be underestimated in terms of skill, but obviously its very different to cash and surely cash is the most skillful considering the blinds are so low relative to stack size...
webby et al... i don't think you should play cash (and i know you dont webby) unless you can grasp why this is a call. I don't see how you can gamble on like blackjack and not call here? The call is a gamble... i am effectively betting £10 that my hand will be better than his at showdown, i deduced his likely shoving range and worked out that i will be correct 60% of the time. Yes he will turn up with aces sometimes... (he showed me KK when i called his shove with 88) because that is within his shoving range, its just that that is the top of his range, so i cant let that put me off the call.
Again ty for all the oppinions, in particular the big cash game players as you guys were the ones i really wanted to hear from... btw brown dog, wow that video you pasted is almost identical so nice find! and dont feel that we are ungrategul of your advice because i am very grateful, others may or may not be but are just struggling to understand the situation.
In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : Not true, I actually stated on page 1 of this post that I would have folded, and I understand your reason for advising Black NOT to post the results for the same reason. lol - Maybe not to your meta-level but my play suits me just fine and my caution in these types of showdowns leaves my manhatten in a nice 'steady eddie' upwardly motion while cutting down on bad beats stories... I prefer to take the gamble out of poker as much as possible...this attitude may not work for everyone!!! x Posted by TRIP5
The idea of reducing your variance is perfectly acceptable and very applicable for those with smaller rolls/with life costs etc etc. There is just no denying that making this call is a long term winning play which is all we ever try and do when we sit down at a cash table.
oh btw please stop dym bashing !!! i think dym can be underestimated in terms of skill, but obviously its very different to cash and surely cash is the most skillful considering the blinds are so low relative to stack size... Posted by BlackFish3
No can do sorry! Each to their own, but DYM's are so robotic and limiting in how you should play (if again you want to be a long term winner).
Comments
With this in mind I would still pass this...
In favour of this...
I do not call on the basis that it is the best offer at the time...which ever way I look at this I want my money in when I know I'm a better than 60% against this player on this night...is it not better to reduce the luck/gambling element?
For 4p (or 1bb) it is an easy pass...his money will still be there but there is no chance of mine joining his stack on his terms. Different player, different outcome!!
x
HAS THIS ARGUMENT BEEN RESOLVED YET?
You seem to be making assumptions about my overall poker play that are unfair and simply not true! why does everything have to be decided pre flop? It is possible to play the streets!!! I'm not sure you can take my strategy to this situation/player and apply it to my poker in general, this is an isolated case and i am offering my opinion based on the parameters provided in this instance.
Specifically in this play, If I had different hole cards or had already invested money in the pot and been raised all in then the outcome would have been different for me...but with zero invested, against this player, let him have his 4p.
I still don't think AJ - suited or not - is the best situation for me to call off my stack this time...what can I say? Even against his range he could have me dominated on this occasion or (as happened) can out draw me.
As it happens Black did the right thing according to the majority of posters and called...he happened to lose his stack on this occasion but as it was right in the long term then that's okay? I on the other hand would have not been out drawn against this guy on this occasion (I may well have been on another hand but that would be a different thread).
Why spend hours building BR to lose it all on one hand, against someone you can't get a read from? I'm not trying to be confrontational but instinct tells me to fold on this occasion, had I have called I would have wished that I hadn't!!!
As it happens - for my limit I am a successful cash player..believe it or not it's tourneys that I struggle with
All the best
x
lol - Maybe not to your meta-level but my play suits me just fine and my caution in these types of showdowns leaves my manhatten in a nice 'steady eddie' upwardly motion while cutting down on bad beats stories...
I prefer to take the gamble out of poker as much as possible...this attitude may not work for everyone!!!
x
x
oh btw please stop dym bashing
webby et al... i don't think you should play cash (and i know you dont webby) unless you can grasp why this is a call. I don't see how you can gamble on like blackjack and not call here? The call is a gamble... i am effectively betting £10 that my hand will be better than his at showdown, i deduced his likely shoving range and worked out that i will be correct 60% of the time. Yes he will turn up with aces sometimes... (he showed me KK when i called his shove with 88) because that is within his shoving range, its just that that is the top of his range, so i cant let that put me off the call.
Again ty for all the oppinions, in particular the big cash game players as you guys were the ones i really wanted to hear from... btw brown dog, wow that video you pasted is almost identical so nice find! and dont feel that we are ungrategul of your advice because i am very grateful, others may or may not be but are just struggling to understand the situation.