If we were to play only one or two large field MTT every night, seven nights a week, it would invariably be nothing but bad beats and pain six or seven nights a week. The key to keeping your sanity and riding out the variance (if you go down the MTT road) is to get as many games in as you can comfortably manage when you decide you are going to play a session - I'd recommend picking out at least four tournaments per session (but ideally more) rather than just playing the mini for example.
I don't know what sort of time you're able to fire up a session but (and if it's a Sky Poker only session) I would recommend this selection of nightly tournaments to help rebuild the confidence and the bankroll - basically what I've been doing for the last three months since I also took an extended break from the game:
17:15, £1.10, £50 Rebuy (looks unappealing but it's a tiny and weak field and almost £40 for the win usually) 17:30, £5.50, £500gtd Bounty Hunter 18:30, £5.50, £1000gtd Bounty Hunter 19:15, £2.20, £100gtd Deep Stack (again, looks unappealing on the surface but gets around £60 for the win. Weak field again, as might be expected, but also some nice people playing these and I always enjoy it) 20:00, £2.20, £500gtd Bounty Hunter 20:30, £5.50, £1500/£2000gtd 'Mini' (The big one. I describe it as akin to attempting to survive a zombie apocalypse but it might be less fun than that . It invariably ends in heartbreak but offers a very tidy sum if you can navigate the field and take the ruddy thing down)
This would give you a nice and manageable six tournament session with a very reasonable outlay of £23 (bear in mind you can double that outlay by winning the smallest of the six tournaments).
I don't know what sort of time you're able to fire up a session but (and if it's a Sky Poker only session) I would recommend this selection of nightly tournaments to help rebuild the confidence and the bankroll - basically what I've been doing for the last three months since I also took an extended break from the game:
17:15, £1.10, £50 Rebuy (looks unappealing but it's a tiny and weak field and almost £40 for the win usually) 17:30, £5.50, £500gtd Bounty Hunter 18:30, £5.50, £1000gtd Bounty Hunter 19:15, £2.20, £100gtd Deep Stack (again, looks unappealing on the surface but gets around £60 for the win. Weak field again, as might be expected, but also some nice people playing these and I always enjoy it) 20:00, £2.20, £500gtd Bounty Hunter 20:30, £5.50, £1500/£2000gtd 'Mini' (The big one. I describe it as akin to attempting to survive a zombie apocalypse but it might be less fun than that . It invariably ends in heartbreak but offers a very tidy sum if you can navigate the field and take the ruddy thing down)
This would give you a nice and manageable six tournament session with a very reasonable outlay of £23 (bear in mind you can double that outlay by winning the smallest of the six tournaments).
The issue this would give me is that I find my results significantly drop off if I play more than one table at once. Maybe that's something which will improve as the game becomes more natural to me.
I do see the point you're making however. Having a losing night is extremely demotivating, but it doesn't really mean much when you only play one tournament. I need to think about how to best proceed because although I would like to play more often each night, my lifestyle at the moment doesn't really suit that, so maybe I should be sticking to STT's.
Thanks for taking the time to post that, you've given me a lot to consider.
Yes, MTT's really require a whole evening set aside to play them and that's just not going to be practical for a lot of people to do regularly, I appreciate that. Have you considered cash games? Could be a great alternative for you. Try a 2 hour session 3 tabling 4nl as an experiment and see how you get on...
I feel your frustration; I've had an on/off relationship with poker for 3 years or so now - she can be a cruel mistress.
You seem to have a pretty good game although the ROI numbers you were hitting previously were insane!
Remember the TDYMs are raked at 10% so beating the TDYMs at all is impressive, given you have about 15 mins max to beat the rake as well as opponents its incredibly tough.
I truly question my sanity when playing them and could to better elsewhere but they are fun.
Really sounds like you need a break from them. Changing games or leaving poker for a bit wouldn't do any harm. Had many breaks from poker ranging from days to months over the years and always find my way back.
Yes, MTT's really require a whole evening set aside to play them and that's just not going to be practical for a lot of people to do regularly, I appreciate that. Have you considered cash games? Could be a great alternative for you. Try a 2 hour session 3 tabling 4nl as an experiment and see how you get on...
I feel your frustration; I've had an on/off relationship with poker for 3 years or so now - she can be a cruel mistress.
I haven't previously considered cash games, they don't really appeal to me - although I am not sure why that is exactly. Maybe I should give them a try at some point. What I thought about last night is that while I am developing, perhaps it makes sense to focus solely on one form of poker and master that before diversifying. If I were to follow that strategy, the logical step would be to focus on STT's, as that's what I'm strongest at right now. The problem is, I need some sort of criteria where I can say "yep, I've mastered this". I thought I had done that already after showing a £1k profit from the TDYM's, but then I lost it in a month .. not sure how best to proceed.
You seem to have a pretty good game although the ROI numbers you were hitting previously were insane!
Remember the TDYMs are raked at 10% so beating the TDYMs at all is impressive, given you have about 15 mins max to beat the rake as well as opponents its incredibly tough.
I truly question my sanity when playing them and could to better elsewhere but they are fun.
Really sounds like you need a break from them. Changing games or leaving poker for a bit wouldn't do any harm. Had many breaks from poker ranging from days to months over the years and always find my way back.
GL!
Really appreciate the compliment, I needed that boost - so thank you.
I only just came back from a long break though; despite me already moaning about needing another one. I'm not going to improve by not playing, so I'm going to try ride it out. Watching Daniel Negreanu's WSOP video blogs is helping to motivate me each day though.
I'm about to hit the TDYM tables for a few hours anyhow. Will let you know how I do.
Okay, my two hour TDYM session is over. I started off poorly both in terms of my play, and the luck I was getting. My luck picked up slightly as I progressed, and my play improved drastically. Cashed in 5/11, showing a £45 loss.
This is really not happening for me. I'm in such a bad place right now.
I would usually consider myself a fairly level-headed person who's able to control his emotions at the poker table. However I'm on such a ridiculous bad run at the moment that I'm getting so frustrated.
At this point I don't know if it's luck, or skill, or what's happening.
Hi Peter - Poker can be a tough old game, especially games that are very swingy such as the TDYM's. You mentioned about wanting to say 'yep, I've mastered this', trouble is I am not convinced that there are many (or even any) players that can make a profit at TDYMs over a decent sample size, you might want to take a look at this thread from a couple of months ago where some very knowledgeable players argue that this format is unbeatable over a long period:
If correct it makes mastering it impossible, assuming by mastering it you mean making profit over a meaningful sample size, especially the stakes you play at where I assume the player pool is quite small and the players most likely very competent.
Massive issue is the timing of results. If the big upswing and downswing were intertwined then it probably shows a more accurate reflection of where you are and you wouldn't have these mental issues which are always likely with big swings. You were on an amazing unsustainable run, no idea how good you are at turbo DYMs but no one is going to be getting those returns. In a format like turbo DYMs where a lot of it is down to ranges you cant be that much better than other regs.
When your results are that much better than other people you need to think whether you are that much better than others at that form of the game. The returns from turbo DYMs are going to be minimal from a ROI perspective even if you are the very best at them. They are a volume game and returns tend to be from RB/bonuses etc due to the rake structure in them.
If you can only 1 table then the variance of MTTs will kill you as it will take so long to get a meaningful sample and swings will take a long time because the games you play in a year will be what others play in a few weeks.
As others have said the game is always here so make sure you are in the right place mentally to play and cope with standard swings (which when you are on a bad run feel like the worst beats ever).
I do think you need to be realistic about the returns you can get from the different poker formats. Think about what you want from poker, it isn't always about getting the best returns as there is the enjoyment factor to think about too.
I don't know what sort of time you're able to fire up a session but (and if it's a Sky Poker only session) I would recommend this selection of nightly tournaments to help rebuild the confidence and the bankroll - basically what I've been doing for the last three months since I also took an extended break from the game:
17:15, £1.10, £50 Rebuy (looks unappealing but it's a tiny and weak field and almost £40 for the win usually) 17:30, £5.50, £500gtd Bounty Hunter 18:30, £5.50, £1000gtd Bounty Hunter 19:15, £2.20, £100gtd Deep Stack (again, looks unappealing on the surface but gets around £60 for the win. Weak field again, as might be expected, but also some nice people playing these and I always enjoy it) 20:00, £2.20, £500gtd Bounty Hunter 20:30, £5.50, £1500/£2000gtd 'Mini' (The big one. I describe it as akin to attempting to survive a zombie apocalypse but it might be less fun than that . It invariably ends in heartbreak but offers a very tidy sum if you can navigate the field and take the ruddy thing down)
This would give you a nice and manageable six tournament session with a very reasonable outlay of £23 (bear in mind you can double that outlay by winning the smallest of the six tournaments).
Thank you @MynaFrett for pointing this out as I took your advice, played the 7.15 Deepy (Sunday night) for the first time in a long time and took it down, winning just under £65, happy days.
Massive issue is the timing of results. If the big upswing and downswing were intertwined then it probably shows a more accurate reflection of where you are and you wouldn't have these mental issues which are always likely with big swings. You were on an amazing unsustainable run, no idea how good you are at turbo DYMs but no one is going to be getting those returns. In a format like turbo DYMs where a lot of it is down to ranges you cant be that much better than other regs.
When your results are that much better than other people you need to think whether you are that much better than others at that form of the game. The returns from turbo DYMs are going to be minimal from a ROI perspective even if you are the very best at them. They are a volume game and returns tend to be from RB/bonuses etc due to the rake structure in them.
If you can only 1 table then the variance of MTTs will kill you as it will take so long to get a meaningful sample and swings will take a long time because the games you play in a year will be what others play in a few weeks.
As others have said the game is always here so make sure you are in the right place mentally to play and cope with standard swings (which when you are on a bad run feel like the worst beats ever).
I do think you need to be realistic about the returns you can get from the different poker formats. Think about what you want from poker, it isn't always about getting the best returns as there is the enjoyment factor to think about too.
Agree totally with this.
Not knocking you-it is something we all have a tendency to do. So easy to think "run good" is skill, and "run bad" is variance.
Whereas in reality it is a mixture of skill, luck and lots of other things.
Mind you, Matt isn't going to Vegas this year because he just isn't good enough
I just won some money in a MTT for the first time in several months! £22 Bounty Hunter, took three heads for 50p profit. BOOM. It's only 50p, but it feels great.
I just won some money in a MTT for the first time in several months! £22 Bounty Hunter, took three heads for 50p profit. BOOM. It's only 50p, but it feels great.
Will write a more detailed post later/tomorrow.
Well done Peter. Did you stick the profit on Vettel to pole?
I just won some money in a MTT for the first time in several months! £22 Bounty Hunter, took three heads for 50p profit. BOOM. It's only 50p, but it feels great.
Will write a more detailed post later/tomorrow.
Well done Peter. Did you stick the profit on Vettel to pole?
I did not sadly, "got the lot" today with 7/5 on Hamilton though.
Massive issue is the timing of results. If the big upswing and downswing were intertwined then it probably shows a more accurate reflection of where you are and you wouldn't have these mental issues which are always likely with big swings. You were on an amazing unsustainable run, no idea how good you are at turbo DYMs but no one is going to be getting those returns. In a format like turbo DYMs where a lot of it is down to ranges you cant be that much better than other regs.
When your results are that much better than other people you need to think whether you are that much better than others at that form of the game. The returns from turbo DYMs are going to be minimal from a ROI perspective even if you are the very best at them. They are a volume game and returns tend to be from RB/bonuses etc due to the rake structure in them.
If you can only 1 table then the variance of MTTs will kill you as it will take so long to get a meaningful sample and swings will take a long time because the games you play in a year will be what others play in a few weeks.
As others have said the game is always here so make sure you are in the right place mentally to play and cope with standard swings (which when you are on a bad run feel like the worst beats ever).
I do think you need to be realistic about the returns you can get from the different poker formats. Think about what you want from poker, it isn't always about getting the best returns as there is the enjoyment factor to think about too.
Thanks to everyone who responded. I love the amount of detail in this post above.
What I want from poker is to know that I'm developing, and to make some money. I do enjoy the game of course, but the main reason I'm playing is to make a profit. I suppose accumulation of money is a form of enjoyment for me.
I see what you're saying about being restricted by one tabling, but then what do you suggest I do? I'll be a big victim of swings in all forms of poker, although admittedly worse in TDYM's. My results do seem to significantly drop off if I open two tables.
I do think I have a good handle on whether or not I'm playing well/badly compared to getting lucky/unlucky. It just so happens at the moment that I'm consistently getting to showdowns ahead, but not winning the majority of my run outs. That being said, the last few days has seen things get slightly better. Still quite bad, but an improvement. I do feel like I am playing well though.
Comments
Continually getting unlucky on turn and river cards. This was the hand that did the damage:
I'm trying to stay positive but with how bad the last month or so has been, it's fairly challenging.
If we were to play only one or two large field MTT every night, seven nights a week, it would invariably be nothing but bad beats and pain six or seven nights a week. The key to keeping your sanity and riding out the variance (if you go down the MTT road) is to get as many games in as you can comfortably manage when you decide you are going to play a session - I'd recommend picking out at least four tournaments per session (but ideally more) rather than just playing the mini for example.
17:15, £1.10, £50 Rebuy (looks unappealing but it's a tiny
and weakfield and almost £40 for the win usually)17:30, £5.50, £500gtd Bounty Hunter
18:30, £5.50, £1000gtd Bounty Hunter
19:15, £2.20, £100gtd Deep Stack (again, looks unappealing on the surface but gets around £60 for the win. Weak field again, as might be expected, but also some nice people playing these and I always enjoy it)
20:00, £2.20, £500gtd Bounty Hunter
20:30, £5.50, £1500/£2000gtd 'Mini' (The big one. I describe it as akin to attempting to survive a zombie apocalypse but it might be less fun than that
This would give you a nice and manageable six tournament session with a very reasonable outlay of £23 (bear in mind you can double that outlay by winning the smallest of the six tournaments).
I do see the point you're making however. Having a losing night is extremely demotivating, but it doesn't really mean much when you only play one tournament. I need to think about how to best proceed because although I would like to play more often each night, my lifestyle at the moment doesn't really suit that, so maybe I should be sticking to STT's.
Thanks for taking the time to post that, you've given me a lot to consider.
I realise I'm coming off like a whiny b**** right now. Unbelievably frustrated.
I feel your frustration; I've had an on/off relationship with poker for 3 years or so now - she can be a cruel mistress.
You seem to have a pretty good game although the ROI numbers you were hitting previously were insane!
Remember the TDYMs are raked at 10% so beating the TDYMs at all is impressive, given you have about 15 mins max to beat the rake as well as opponents its incredibly tough.
I truly question my sanity when playing them and could to better elsewhere but they are fun.
Really sounds like you need a break from them. Changing games or leaving poker for a bit wouldn't do any harm. Had many breaks from poker ranging from days to months over the years and always find my way back.
GL!
I only just came back from a long break though; despite me already moaning about needing another one. I'm not going to improve by not playing, so I'm going to try ride it out. Watching Daniel Negreanu's WSOP video blogs is helping to motivate me each day though.
I'm about to hit the TDYM tables for a few hours anyhow. Will let you know how I do.
I would usually consider myself a fairly level-headed person who's able to control his emotions at the poker table. However I'm on such a ridiculous bad run at the moment that I'm getting so frustrated.
At this point I don't know if it's luck, or skill, or what's happening.
I don't know what to do.
https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby/community/forums#/discussion/174804/sky-high-rake/p11
If correct it makes mastering it impossible, assuming by mastering it you mean making profit over a meaningful sample size, especially the stakes you play at where I assume the player pool is quite small and the players most likely very competent.
Best of luck with however you choose to proceed.
Greg.
You were on an amazing unsustainable run, no idea how good you are at turbo DYMs but no one is going to be getting those returns. In a format like turbo DYMs where a lot of it is down to ranges you cant be that much better than other regs.
When your results are that much better than other people you need to think whether you are that much better than others at that form of the game. The returns from turbo DYMs are going to be minimal from a ROI perspective even if you are the very best at them. They are a volume game and returns tend to be from RB/bonuses etc due to the rake structure in them.
If you can only 1 table then the variance of MTTs will kill you as it will take so long to get a meaningful sample and swings will take a long time because the games you play in a year will be what others play in a few weeks.
As others have said the game is always here so make sure you are in the right place mentally to play and cope with standard swings (which when you are on a bad run feel like the worst beats ever).
I do think you need to be realistic about the returns you can get from the different poker formats. Think about what you want from poker, it isn't always about getting the best returns as there is the enjoyment factor to think about too.
Good luck at the tables
Not knocking you-it is something we all have a tendency to do. So easy to think "run good" is skill, and "run bad" is variance.
Whereas in reality it is a mixture of skill, luck and lots of other things.
Mind you, Matt isn't going to Vegas this year because he just isn't good enough
^^^^^
@MattBates is not going to Vegas this year? Why not?
He should have mentioned it.
Will write a more detailed post later/tomorrow.
What I want from poker is to know that I'm developing, and to make some money. I do enjoy the game of course, but the main reason I'm playing is to make a profit. I suppose accumulation of money is a form of enjoyment for me.
I see what you're saying about being restricted by one tabling, but then what do you suggest I do? I'll be a big victim of swings in all forms of poker, although admittedly worse in TDYM's. My results do seem to significantly drop off if I open two tables.
I do think I have a good handle on whether or not I'm playing well/badly compared to getting lucky/unlucky. It just so happens at the moment that I'm consistently getting to showdowns ahead, but not winning the majority of my run outs. That being said, the last few days has seen things get slightly better. Still quite bad, but an improvement. I do feel like I am playing well though.