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What should I do now?

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  • WhizzewkyWhizzewky Member Posts: 28
    edited January 2017
    In Response to Re: What should I do now?:
    So I jammed all-in. I was only worried about UTG man, logically nobody else can have a hand. He snap-called. Whoops. It seemed an age before everyone else folded, & I was cursing myself for being so dumb. Boy, I was gonna look pretty silly now.   Eventually, everyone else folds, & it's on their backs.   He has A-5. There's no twist in the tail, the door card was the King, & it ran out safely.    
    Posted by Tikay10
    Very surprised,in most other forms,cash, turbo most mtt's it would be a no brainer to jam..in this situation so early on makes little sense to me.

  • MP33MP33 Member Posts: 6,235
    edited January 2017
    In Response to Re: What should I do now?:
    So I jammed all-in. I was only worried about UTG man, logically nobody else can have a hand. He snap-called. Whoops. It seemed an age before everyone else folded, & I was cursing myself for being so dumb. Boy, I was gonna look pretty silly now.   Eventually, everyone else folds, & it's on their backs.   He has A-5. There's no twist in the tail, the door card was the King, & it ran out safely.    
    Posted by Tikay10
    He,s possibly done you a big favour there and potentially put another player off calling with a pocket pair, who may have done, had they thought they,d be going in 2 handed
  • bbMikebbMike Member Posts: 3,699
    edited January 2017
    Never underestimate the number of times the oppo's cat might jump on their keyboard.
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 158,806
    edited January 2017
    In Response to Re: What should I do now?:
    In Response to Re: What should I do now? : Very surprised,in most other forms,cash, turbo most mtt's it would be a no brainer to jam..in this situation so early on makes little sense to me.
    Posted by Whizzewky
    Don't think I'd make a habit of it Whizzy, it just seemed to good to resist at the time.

    The transition from Pot Limit (PLO & PLO8) to NL are so long playing exclusively PL has made me a bit trigger happy.

    Glad I started the thread though, as it taught me loads, & I'll be curbing that habit now.
     
    How was the laptop? Not like to be you next time you pass. Boy that's gonna sting.  
  • TommyDTommyD Member Posts: 4,389
    edited January 2017
    Well I'm gonna stick to my guns here and say it's still a jam.  I respect and get where most of the arguments being put forward for other options are coming from though.

    Let me elaborate on the thinking.  To cash in a DYM we need an average finishing stack of 4k.  We are going to need to accumulate chips.  Yes chip conservation is a high priority and every hand should be addressed with the question 'What's a very good reason why I shouldn't fold?'  I feel this does present such a reason from the dynamic you have put forward.

    We should limit the times we are at risk, ideally to zero but as much as we have testimonies from people in this thread of 'someone will call,' the juicy days of not having to play a hand in 20% of DYMs to cash as chips flew around are all but over.  You'll be in at least one at risk spot.  Now unless flop sets and run like [insert current in form Reg's name here] these spots will be 65%-70% spots if we are playing optimally.  Clearly we'd like to avoid this but there's a strong chance we'll face at least one a game.  That's why if we were calling off (and indeed any time we call off rather than jam ourselves) it is, to me at least, much more borderline.

    Back to the actual hand, now it's critically important now we've doubled from a dominating position early that we navigate our way to the win.
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 158,806
    edited January 2017
    In Response to Re: What should I do now?:
    Well I'm gonna stick to my guns here and say it's still a jam.  I respect and get where most of the arguments being put forward for other options are coming from though. Let me elaborate on the thinking.  To cash in a DYM we need an average finishing stack of 4k.  We are going to need to accumulate chips.  Yes chip conservation is a high priority and every hand should be addressed with the question 'What's a very good reason why I shouldn't fold?'  I feel this does present such a reason from the dynamic you have put forward. We should limit the times we are at risk, ideally to zero but as much as we have testimonies from people in this thread of 'someone will call,' the juicy days of not having to play a hand in 20% of DYMs to cash as chips flew around are all but over.  You'll be in at least one at risk spot.  Now unless flop sets and run like [insert current in form Reg's name here] these spots will be 65%-70% spots if we are playing optimally.  Clearly we'd like to avoid this but there's a strong chance we'll face at least one a game.  That's why if we were calling off (and indeed any time we call off rather than jam ourselves) it is, to me at least, much more borderline. Back to the actual hand, now it's critically important now we've doubled from a dominating position early that we navigate our way to the win.
    Posted by TommyD
    Not a bad effort considering that whilst you were posting this, you were also busy winning last night's Main Event. Congrats.
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 158,806
    edited January 2017
    In Response to Re: What should I do now?:
    Well I'm gonna stick to my guns here and say it's still a jam.  I respect and get where most of the arguments being put forward for other options are coming from though. Let me elaborate on the thinking.  To cash in a DYM we need an average finishing stack of 4k.  We are going to need to accumulate chips.  Yes chip conservation is a high priority and every hand should be addressed with the question 'What's a very good reason why I shouldn't fold?'  I feel this does present such a reason from the dynamic you have put forward. We should limit the times we are at risk, ideally to zero but as much as we have testimonies from people in this thread of 'someone will call,' the juicy days of not having to play a hand in 20% of DYMs to cash as chips flew around are all but over.  You'll be in at least one at risk spot.  Now unless flop sets and run like [insert current in form Reg's name here] these spots will be 65%-70% spots if we are playing optimally.  Clearly we'd like to avoid this but there's a strong chance we'll face at least one a game.  That's why if we were calling off (and indeed any time we call off rather than jam ourselves) it is, to me at least, much more borderline. Back to the actual hand, now it's critically important now we've doubled from a dominating position early that we navigate our way to the win.
    Posted by TommyD
    I'm getting some help (coaching, advice) from 2 respected DYM guys who are both big winners long term, & they both think I should not be jamming here, & I've kinds agreed they are right.

    The temptation to jam in this spot still sits with me though, it just does. It's such a great spot. 

    Anyway, yes, once I doubled, I just had to get home safely. In these situations, I'm as near a lock as possible, I play snug & cosy, & just sit quietly for the most part. Bashing up the shorties just because I can, with my double stack, holds no appeal to me, I long ago forgot all about ego. We get the same money for 3rd as 1st, & that'll do me.

    I saw a kid with 5,500 chips 5 handed end up busting in 5th 2 nights ago. That's ego at its worst.    
        
  • Phantom66Phantom66 Member Posts: 5,542
    edited January 2017
    In Response to Re: What should I do now?:
    Well I'm gonna stick to my guns here and say it's still a jam.  I respect and get where most of the arguments being put forward for other options are coming from though. Let me elaborate on the thinking.  To cash in a DYM we need an average finishing stack of 4k.  We are going to need to accumulate chips.  Yes chip conservation is a high priority and every hand should be addressed with the question 'What's a very good reason why I shouldn't fold?'  I feel this does present such a reason from the dynamic you have put forward. We should limit the times we are at risk, ideally to zero but as much as we have testimonies from people in this thread of 'someone will call,' the juicy days of not having to play a hand in 20% of DYMs to cash as chips flew around are all but over.  You'll be in at least one at risk spot.  Now unless flop sets and run like [insert current in form Reg's name here] these spots will be 65%-70% spots if we are playing optimally.  Clearly we'd like to avoid this but there's a strong chance we'll face at least one a game.  That's why if we were calling off (and indeed any time we call off rather than jam ourselves) it is, to me at least, much more borderline. Back to the actual hand, now it's critically important now we've doubled from a dominating position early that we navigate our way to the win.
    Posted by TommyD
    1. To cash in a DYM we just need a finishing stack, If we focus on trying to get to 4k+ I would suggest we are not playing optimally.

    2. Agreed - attempting to fold to the money is a very bad strategy - just enjoy the rare times when it happens

    3. I understand where you are coming from in the rest of the post but you are not 65-70% by jamming AK here surely? 


    Priority for a DYM is to reach the bubble with a playable stack imo.

    My strategy is to try and get there with as little risk as possible, doesnt mean I dont shove or call all-in pre, of course I do.
    Yes accumulate chips, but I try and do that by isolating weaker players. 

    At low stakes (and this is in the context of a 2.25 dym) there are plenty of fit/fold types who you can pick chips up from, and a few calling stations and serial bluffers who are easy to spot and exploit. Why would we want to give up our edge on them by flipping?

    If we reach the bubble with a playable stack we have mostly done our job. If there are 4 equal ability players on a dym bubble we should cash 75% of the time now. Happy days. 






  • MattBatesMattBates Member Posts: 4,118
    edited January 2017
    In Response to Re: What should I do now?:
    In Response to Re: What should I do now? : 1. To cash in a DYM we just need a finishing stack, If we focus on trying to get to 4k+ I would suggest we are not playing optimally. 2. Agreed - attempting to fold to the money is a very bad strategy - just enjoy the rare times when it happens 3. I understand where you are coming from in the rest of the post but you are not 65-70% by jamming AK here surely?  Priority for a DYM is to reach the bubble with a playable stack imo. My strategy is to try and get there with as little risk as possible, doesnt mean I dont shove or call all-in pre, of course I do. Yes accumulate chips, but I try and do that by isolating weaker players.  At low stakes (and this is in the context of a 2.25 dym) there are plenty of fit/fold types who you can pick chips up from, and a few calling stations and serial bluffers who are easy to spot and exploit. Why would we want to give up our edge on them by flipping? If we reach the bubble with a playable stack we have mostly done our job. If there are 4 equal ability players on a dym bubble we should cash 75% of the time now. Happy days. 
    Posted by Phantom66
    This boils down to calling ranges. It seems most from the non jam camp have decided AQ etc isnt calling and we are only called by pairs and not the large number of hands we dominate (like A5 for example). 
  • Phantom66Phantom66 Member Posts: 5,542
    edited January 2017
    In Response to Re: What should I do now?:
    In Response to Re: What should I do now? : This boils down to calling ranges. It seems most from the non jam camp have decided AQ etc isnt calling and we are only called by pairs and not the large number of hands we dominate (like A5 for example). 
    Posted by MattBates

    In a sample of 1 we have made a great shove and got the sort of call we are looking for.

    If you want to justify the jam you can assume a high % of folds and calls from Ax. If I want to justify a non-jam I can assume a low % of folds and a high % of more than one caller and a low % of Ax calls.

    I dont shove in these spots anymore (took we a while to adjust from 6max to dyms) so I dont have a great sample of calls here either - I don't expect anyone does so we are all speculating on ranges to a certain extent.

    Truth is none of us know for sure - I think if we look at the anti-jammers most of them are dym regulars.

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